[F87source]

Originally Posted by johnung

IMO you are mischaracterizing the Kies product as having "fitment issues" in order to promote your Canadian product. This is a common marketing dirty trick. When there is a superior product, competitors throw nonsense at it in an attempt to create FUD- Fear Uncertainty and Doubt where none really exists. They try to create a fictitious problem with the superior product to convince a customer to buy their inferior product instead.

First off I have zero affiliations with malo industries, I make zero money "promoting" their products. Here is the full story when I was looking for a crank seal plate in late fall last year to buy I had the decision between: The oxwerkz plate, a welded ebay plate, and the newly released malo plate (the first cnc plate available). I reached out to malo to see if in the summer time next year (2021) if they would be willing to sponsor me for a review and they agreed. So around winter time a few other plates came out the Vac/kies plate, and the VTT plate. But upon reviewing my potential alternate options I noticed the VTT plate had less material holding onto the tabs so I ruled it out, the VAC/kies plate had an alignment ring on it which I really liked but upon looking at some N54's which all had flushed crank seals - I realized this could be a potential fitment issue that I did not want to deal with. So that led me to the conclusion the best overall plate was the malo industries plate and I would have purchased it regardless of other options out there and regardless if I had a sponsorship or not.

I am not mischaracterizing anything I am simply providing evidence that there are indeed fitment issues with this vac/kies plate, I have nothing to gain by spreading misinformation or trying to get people to buy the malo plate as my partnership for this product has concluded with malo industries. I only did this review to fulfill my end of the sponsorship and to let people know my thought on the plate and spread awareness about this product (which regardless of sponsorship or not I believe in my opinion is the best that is currently available, and the reasons are clearly explained in my main thread, I don't just reach out to any company I only do that with companies who sell parts that I actually would use and think is the absolute best) - that's kind of how a review works...

Originally Posted by johnung

I have the Kies Seal Guard installed on my car and I've seen it fitted on other engines. It is designed and manufactured to fit precisely on stock BMW N54, N55 & S55 engines. Every stock BMW engine that I have seen in this group comes with its front crankshaft seal precisely recessed the exact same amount within the cylinder that holds it.

That's good that it fits on your car, but that is irrelevant to it being able to fit every single car.

The next thing you need to know is Kies didn't design anything this plate is made by vac motorsports and relabeled for kies.

Next it clearly was not manufactured with the n54 in mind because most if not all of those engines have flushed crank seals. If you want to argue this point provide some proof instead of saying you have "seen" fitment.

Here is my proof:
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1299182
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1299182
https://www.***********.com/showthre...ntenance-check

So even on the stock n54 seal that was damaged it is still flush. That's probably why all the plates designed with the n54 as the starting platform (Malo, Oxwerkz, VTT, and the ebay plates) have flat backings because there was no room for an alignment rim. VTT even says in their other thread they designed their plate for engine compatibility across all the platforms.

Originally Posted by johnung

The Kies Seal Guard fits perfectly and after installation doesn't come within 2mm-3mm of the seal itself. Not even close! That is considered a large amount of space with a product that is engineered to fit within 20 thousandths of an inch from the spinning crankshaft. The fact that the Kies Seal Guard is engineered this way is a huge advantage over any other. It is the way BMW would have designed it. See attached photo.

Says who? Where is your data even from? And clearly it is not accurate because the user BMWHoochie's seal contacts this plate and it is the same seal from the factory.

Also guess what he said when he contacted vac: "I called VAC and confirmed that they do make the guard for other vendors who put their name on it. I called them because getting some form of speedy communication from Kies was difficult because you can't call them. You send a message, and wait one or two days, they send a message back and ask a question I would reply and would wait another day or two for a response.

VAC wanted me to put the guard on, and lightly TAP it back pushing the seal back more (lol NOPE). They also said I could sand the lip down (again NOPE) not for the $200 that I paid. For $200 bucks this thing should come with Netflix. They did say they have new versions with the lip shaved back more because they have got a few complaints about this. I sent it back for a refund."

So what do we learn from this?

1) This plate isn't so highly engineered to the point of extremely tolerance in terms of depth from the crank seal.

2) Kies has slow customer service, in my experience with malo it was really responsive customer service.

3) Vac's proposed solution was to "tap the the plate to push the seal back in more" - sounds sketchy as hell to me. They also said that the OP could sand the plate back a bit, again sketch. Sounds exactly what a highly engineered $200 plate needs right out of the box.....

4) Vac is working on a revised plate - hmm if it was so highly engineered to perfect tolerance why do they have to do that. it is also them acknowledging that these seals vary in depth.

So far I don't see any huge advantage over other plates, I see a huge compromise in the engineering and a lack of engine fitment testing. It sounds like they designed it off of one engine and then instantly threw it onto the market for sale without having a fitment test. Also I'm sure if bmw designed it, it wouldn't be having fitment issues.

Originally Posted by johnung

The Kies Seal Guard is made to protect the seal and made to be installed perfectly every single time. It takes the human error out of these flat plates that slide all around and have oval bolt holes. They are fully dependent on the installer aligning it and torquing it down perfectly. They aren't indexed to the cylinder like the Kies Seal Guard so if vibration loosens them at all over time, then they are in danger of hitting the spinning crankshaft. In a split second the whole thing would be a hot mess and probably destroy the crank seal.

In regards to the first sentence every plate is made to protect the seal, all the tolerances are insanely tight on all good aftermarket plates. Also it has become evident it does not install perfectly every single time...

it may take out human error, but you would have to really suck at working on your car to not be able to position a metal plate. You literally line it up and push backwards (which has been done on hundred if not thousands of n54's without issue on prior plates), if you cannot do that then you probably shouldn't be installing this plate.

In regards to the oval bolt holes only the VTT plate has them, and they are slotted bolt holes oval holes wouldn't allow for any movement forwards and back in positioning. The malo plate has circular holes.


I don't think you know how this works... Once torqued down there is zero movement regardless of vibration, the only way you can get the plate to move is if the bolts come loose and if that were to occur any plate including the kies plate would be susceptible. Especially once the bolts are loctited in.

Next there have been ebay plates that have completely broken by hitting the harmonic dampener and it didn't damage the seal.


Credit: Slow335is post#12 (https://www.sp oolstreet.c om/threads/who-has-this-crank-seal-protection-plate.5221/page-5#post-108917 )


Credit: Slow335is post#12 (https://www.sp oolstreet.c om/threads/who-has-this-crank-seal-protection-plate.5221/page-5#post-108917 )

Oh and it seems like you are the one spreading FUD, and in your case you have zero proof or back up so it legitimately is mischaracterization.

Originally Posted by johnung

That's another thing that's impressive about the Kies Seal Guard. It uses expensive Genuine BMW engine bolts that are the same style, but slightly longer than the stock bolts being removed. And the Kies Seal Guard itself is exactly the thickness to match that extra length. Other seal guards use cheap hardware store bolts that don't match. The ones that I've checked have a lesser strength grade then BMW Genuine engine bolts.

Again more misinformation, let me break it down:

1) IT is fantastic that VAC is using OEM bmw bolts 10/10.
2) Here is where it goes wrong, kies in their installation video does not torque to yield these bolts. What torque to yield does is stretches an aluminium bolts threads preventing vibration from loosening them. Kies did not do this and it leads me to wonder are these torque to yield bolts or just another bmw Etorx bolt with the same m8 thread pattern but longer.

If kies has forgotten to torque to yield the bolt as per bmw's TIS (ISTA) then that is a huge mistake and can cause the plate to come loose and create a "hotmess and probably destroy the crank seal" like you said.....

If kies did not torque to yield it because it is not a torque to yield bolt then the thing is susceptible to coming loose, and loctite should have been used. Then at this point the bolt is no better than any ordinary bolt, it is just a standard e torx but sold by bmw. BTW you can't yield a standard bolt or you will strip the threads...

2) Now here is where your lack of knowledge comes in, you said other seal guards use cheap hardware store bolts that don't match. First off this is more FUD and misinformation from someone who doesn't know the full situation.

Firstly the bolts have the same m8 thread pattern as the block so how can there be a mismatch in this regard?

Secondly you must not understand that vac had to design their plate around using the oem bmw bolts because they were only a certain size. Any other company could focus on designing their plate to have the tab at any thickeness that they wanted depending on strength requirements and after that they can pick a bolt to compensate for the thickness of the tab. How is this done? Well you do realize you can literally buy m8 bolts with nearly any mm length you want right? The stock bolt is 37 mm (https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/par...&q=11110392552 -----> https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...lt-11110392552 -------> x4 11117528896 - ASA-Bolt M8x37 -AL, AW) and you can buy an m8 bolt from 37 mm going up by 1 mm to any length you want..... Literally this allows unparalled flexibility in engineering and design where you engineer based on needs not based on constraints of bolt length. This is a much better engineering philosophy.

Next you said oem bmw bolts are lesser strength grade. Again proof or it is more misinformation and FUD. Now there are also 4 counters to this:

a) The stock bmw bolt is aluminium and aftermarket bolts like the malo are grade A2 stainless, there is no way the stock alumium bolt is stronger than this especially because it is able to stretch.

b) VTT sells grade 12.9 steel bolts, this is the highest strength rating for a bolt. So how is a stretchable alumium bolt stronger? Yeah exactly....

c) The stock block has aluminium threads those are more likely to strip out before any bolt fails....

d) You can replace any crank seal guards included bolts with grade 12.9 bolts if you wish.

All these counters makes your point moot and just more fear mongering to justify your $200 expenditure.

Originally Posted by johnung

I bought another seal guard online and when I actually had it in my hands, I refused to put that crap on my expensive BMW engine. Then the Kies came out and it was a properly engineered product.

Elaborate? You probably bought a cheapo ebay guard.

Also price does not define quality, if you think that way then you are susceptible to being screwed over by mark up.

Also we have just discussed that the kies/vac plate isn't so well engineered and thought out as you may have expected. There are flaws to this plate which is normal when you try to push the limits of innovation, but compared to other plates out there it is not superior.

So at this point I doubt you know what a well engineered plate is.

I have held the malo plate, it is extremely stiff with zero play. There is no rough edges or chips and no abnormal jagged edges to the plate. There are no machining burs left over it is an excellently crafted plate. It is also extremely light weight as it should be for its size.

Originally Posted by johnung

Dig deeper and you'll find that these reports of "issues" stem from a few engines that have had their front crankshaft seals replaced and installed incorrectly. They were not recessed the same amount as their original seal was from the factory.

Replacement of the front crankshaft seal is not common. In fact it's very unusual unless the car is older/high mileage. Most cars by far still have their original crank seals installed correctly from the factory. The chance that a seal on someone's particular engine wouldn't be correctly recessed is minuscule compared to the number of BMW engines that there are.

If anyone goes to install any seal guard and finds that their crank seal is not recessed properly, I'd encourage them to remove it and install a new seal to the correct factory depth. Leaving it that way is an engine disaster waiting to happen.

First off before I debunk your claims you need to offer evidence, I have backed up each and everyone of my statements you have not. All you have done is throw claims out there and accuse me of spreading misinformation, if anything it is you who is spreading misinformation to market the vac/kies plate. So I suggest you dig "deeper".


Also this statement kind of shows your lack of knowledge regarding this platform, and it is frightening how you are the one offering advice regarding what owners should do to their crank seal. This can cause some costly repairs if people with seals that are flushed or not recessed enough start caving to your fear mongering and mess up their seals trying to push it in. Or it can cause someone to spend unecessary money to address a "problem" that doesn't exist.

My advice is if your seal is recessed fine, if it is flush also fine, the only time you should touch your seal is if it leaks or is damaged.

Also do you have to alter your seal to make a plate fit likely that plate has a poor design. That's why I recommend the malo plate no need to worry about any fitment issues from an alignment ring.

The seals installed by the factory are recessed but tolerances are not all the same as shown by reports of the kies plate not fitting.

Secondly a flush installed seal is perfectly fine, that is how bmw's TIS specifies to do it, so again more misinformation from you and spreading fear about seals that are supposed to be set at a certain depth. If it is supposed to be set at a certain depth where is your proof??? And what is the depth and what tool are you supposed to use to determine said depth?


Here is a screen shot of the bmw tis straight from ISTA:


This should conclude this debate, before you reply make sure you have some legit evidence. I'm tired of doing debates with people who just like to argue with no back up.