[Ingeniator]

Cooling system upgrades. So I had a low coolant warning this morning on startup. Turns out I was a touch low topped up with distilled water. This got me thinking about my water pump though. As this is a common failure item on these motors has anyone tried swapping it out for a Mezeire billet pump or simillar? According to the specs stock pump is a 400W/9000lph pump. A Mezeire billet for example is a 12amp/55gpm pump. Rough conversions below

Stock 400w @ ~13v = 30-31 amps 9000lph = 40 gpm.
mezeire 12amp @ ~13v = 150-160W 55gpm = 12500lph

[Zulu11]

I had to change my water pump around 60k miles and a few days ago my upper radiator hose took a dump and changed that too 64k miles. hope this helps

[Killerfish2012]

The older ones in the early 335I's like yours and mine, are 400Watt pumps. BMW no longer makes this for our cars. I believe we were sharing this one with the regular 330I. After the 335IS, and 1M BMW started making only the 600watt pump for our cars. This is the only part number available for our car, and is the newest part number, ending in 577, I think.

[Ingeniator]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

The older ones in the early 335I's like yours and mine, are 400Watt pumps. BMW no longer makes this for our cars. I believe we were sharing this one with the regular 330I. After the 335IS, and 1M BMW started making only the 600watt pump for our cars. This is the only part number available for our car, and is the newest part number, ending in 577, I think.

The new one is still plastic though right?

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Ingeniator

The new one is still plastic though right?

No it's all metal. The plastic one is for the 330I.

[Ingeniator]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

No it's all metal. The plastic one is for the 330I.

Realoem lists 11517632426 for 02/2012 and earlier. Turner lists for $460

Here is the meziere from jegs @ $440. May still be a good option for track only cars.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Ingeniator

Realoem lists 11517632426 for 02/2012 and earlier. Turner lists for $460

Here is the meziere from jegs @ $440. May still be a good option for track only cars.

Here's something to keep in mind about our supercomplicated cars. It doesn't even matter, if you were able to put in a water pump from a tank into our cars. It won't make ANY difference at all to your water temps. Why? well our ecu controls our water temps by going into one of 7 different modes depending on driving condition. 9 times out of 10 it's in a mode called economy mode, which doesn't task the water pump at all in order to make sure your engine oil temps stay at ~230-245F. At this temperature, our car will have it's highest MPG rating. Even if you were tracking the car, the water pump speed is still at the mercy of the ecu. This is why the dinan tune, remaps the ecu water pump operation. To date, this is the only tune that ever addressed this issue, and is one of the reasons why their tune costs so much money. Every other tunner either over looked this very important feature, or just couldn't address it.

[Ingeniator]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Here's something to keep in mind about our supercomplicated cars. It doesn't even matter, if you were able to put in a water pump from a tank into our cars. It won't make ANY difference at all to your water temps. Why? well our ecu controls our water temps by going into one of 7 different modes depending on driving condition. 9 times out of 10 it's in a mode called economy mode, which doesn't task the water pump at all in order to make sure your engine oil temps stay at ~230-245F. At this temperature, our car will have it's highest MPG rating. Even if you were tracking the car, the water pump speed is still at the mercy of the ecu. This is why the dinan tune, remaps the ecu water pump operation. To date, this is the only tune that ever addressed this issue, and is one of the reasons why their tune costs so much money. Every other tunner either over looked this very important feature, or just couldn't address it.

By swaping in a direct power high flow pump the ecu no longer has a variable speed motor to control. You would run at max flow at all times. I work with indusrial VFD's It is basicly like swtiching the pump to manual and running at 100%. The fan on the radiator may very off dme aswell but again that could be swaped to run off a relay or switch for a track car. I'm looking at what parts to put into a dedicated track car and I'm planing on using this XI as a test platform until I find a 1 series to build. I just thught I would bring this stuff up to others with dedicated cars to let them know there are better perfroming alternatives for the same price.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Ingeniator

By swaping in a direct power high flow pump the ecu no longer has a variable speed motor to control. You would run at max flow at all times. I work with indusrial VFD's It is basicly like swtiching the pump to manual and running at 100%. The fan on the radiator may very off dme aswell but again that could be swaped to run off a relay or switch for a track car. I'm looking at what parts to put into a dedicated track car and I'm planing on using this XI as a test platform until I find a 1 series to build. I just thught I would bring this stuff up to others with dedicated cars to let them know there are better perfroming alternatives for the same price.

I've tracked my N54 since 2009, and now have 114k miles on the vehicle. I can tell you that even if the water pump was higher flow, like you claim, without ecu interference, you will still eventually over heat. This water pump upgrade, only buys time. Just like adding, oil, water, and even transmission coolers. Lap after lap, you will continue to build core heat, and your lap times will continue to deteriorate. Both the oil, and water are in direct contact with turbos, which are pushing exhaust gases @ 1,600F! It's just a fact of life. The N54 is great for doing a few laps, but for serious race cars like the one that you plan on building, you really want to get an N/A car like the E36 M3.

[Ingeniator]

The delta of the heat is not a factor as long as you have enough cooling fluid to prevent it from boiling. The total heat absorbed by the system is what you need to worry about. Increasing circulation rates will result in an increase in efficiency from your exchangers. IMO a few things would go a long way to improving the cooling efficiency. Increase the coolant circulation. Improve the radiator size or efficiencies. increase the oil cooler size and convert to a forced circulation with a fan on the cooler. Possibly convert the bottom end to dry sump to prevent heat soak in the pan. Use a water to air intercooler as a track day improvement most likely using a brine solution and a super chiller prior to race heats.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Ingeniator

The delta of the heat is not a factor as long as you have enough cooling fluid to prevent it from boiling. The total heat absorbed by the system is what you need to worry about. Increasing circulation rates will result in an increase in efficiency from your exchangers. IMO a few things would go a long way to improving the cooling efficiency. Increase the coolant circulation. Improve the radiator size or efficiencies. increase the oil cooler size and convert to a forced circulation with a fan on the cooler. Possibly convert the bottom end to dry sump to prevent heat soak in the pan. Use a water to air intercooler as a track day improvement most likely using a brine solution and a super chiller prior to race heats.

Just check out the limp mode thread in the track section, which is years old. We've all tried everything. The only thing that works is Meth. However, that stuff's toxic, and once it runs out, your back to high temps again. It's simply not worth the hassle. There are plenty of naturally aspirated vehicles that will work fine, and won't inhibit your driving like the N54.

[3000GT MR]

for tracking the only thing that'll help is a bigger radiator and a cooler tstat which is DME controlled so that should just be software. A bigger pump moving more fluid isn't the answer but may work better with a larger coolant system. So in all respect no as pump won't help alone, but yes it may be vital with add larger cooling system

[Ingeniator]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Just check out the limp mode thread in the track section, which is years old. We've all tried everything. The only thing that works is Meth. However, that stuff's toxic, and once it runs out, your back to high temps again. It's simply not worth the hassle. There are plenty of naturally aspirated vehicles that will work fine, and won't inhibit your driving like the N54.

Originally Posted by 3000GT MR

for tracking the only thing that'll help is a bigger radiator and a cooler tstat which is DME controlled so that should just be software. A bigger pump moving more fluid isn't the answer but may work better with a larger coolant system. So in all respect no as pump won't help alone, but yes it may be vital with add larger cooling system

killerfish

I doubt you have tried everything. People may have tried a few things but not everything.

3000GT
I was just showing people the option if they have a track car and need a water pump this is a better replacement then stock.(low amp for less parasitic loss and higher flow). I agree a larger rad is required but the front is pretty jammed already. A slightly larger core size with more efficient flow and higher CFM fan might be all that can fit. A large improvement may be seen if we switch to at least a large flow oil cooler with a dedicated pump.(Efficency info) A dry sump system would improve this further by keeping the large quantity of cool oil away from the bottom end. I also think a chill box and water to air intercooler would help with IAT's if needed. All of this would have to be custom fabricated for our cars as I can't find even an off the shelf performance rad.

[MDORPHN]

I track my 1M extensively. Won't go into details, but a lot of mods and considerably more hp than stock.

Although I've spent considerable time/money on oil cooling, I've left the coolant system alone and haven't had any problems, including at tracks like Barber, VIR, Summit Point in July/August.

The 1M does have the "auxilliary cooling system" as stock, which includes a more powerful fan and a small supplemental heat exchanger.

Neil

[pwr hungry]

Originally Posted by MDORPHN

I track my 1M extensively. Won't go into details, but a lot of mods and considerably more hp than stock.

Although I've spent considerable time/money on oil cooling, I've left the coolant system alone and haven't had any problems, including at tracks like Barber, VIR, Summit Point in July/August.

The 1M does have the "auxilliary cooling system" as stock, which includes a more powerful fan and a small supplemental heat exchanger.

Neil

How much power are you making and what all does BMW include in the cooling kit? There are software changes as well as the physical components, no?

[MDORPHN]

Originally Posted by pwr hungry

How much power are you making and what all does BMW include in the cooling kit? There are software changes as well as the physical components, no?

Depending on fuel (E15 octane or E40 93 octane), between approx. 435 - 475 whp.

Yes, the programming controlling the fan and, I believe, water pump is revised.

Water temp generally 209 with very occasional spikes to 230ish if prolonged idling during stop-and-go on very hot days. IIRC, coolant won't boil over 'til about 250-260 at 15psi, so nothing to worry about.

EDIT: Even when hammering it during prolonged track sessions at VIR in August, oil never above 270.

Neil

[Ingeniator]

Originally Posted by MDORPHN

Depending on fuel (E15 octane or E40 93 octane), between approx. 435 - 475 whp.

Yes, the programming controlling the fan and, I believe, water pump is revised.

Water temp generally 209 with very occasional spikes to 230ish if prolonged idling during stop-and-go on very hot days. IIRC, coolant won't boil over 'til about 250-260 at 15psi, so nothing to worry about.

EDIT: Even when hammering it during prolonged track sessions at VIR in August, oil never above 270.

Neil

What did you do to the oil cooling system. Are you running an aftermarkit kit or custom solution?

[MDORPHN]

Originally Posted by Ingeniator

What did you do to the oil cooling system. Are you running an aftermarkit kit or custom solution?

RRT Racing in Sterling, VA fab'd up a system built around a 32 row Setrab exchanger.

Neil

[scottn2retro]

Originally Posted by MDORPHN

The 1M does have the "auxilliary cooling system" as stock, which includes a more powerful fan and a small supplemental heat exchanger.
Neil

I'll be working on increasing power on our 135i race and I was wondering if I could get those parts without getting a performance package kit.

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

.....This is why the dinan tune, remaps the ecu water pump operation. To date, this is the only tune that ever addressed this issue, and is one of the reasons why their tune costs so much money. Every other tunner either over looked this very important feature, or just couldn't address it.

RENNtech's N54 tuning also remaps the water pump. I had both Dinan stage 3 and RENNtech's tuning on my car. RENNtech's remaping is much more affective than Dinan's also, and they are significantly cheaper than Dinan, and they offer more power.