[vbmw335]

Originally Posted by Lee Rambler

trap speed is what you need to look at to take the driver and launch out of the equation. 2 1/2 mph increase isn't that great - certainly good, but not what I'd expect from "50-70hp" gains.

I disagree. Trap speed is not apples to apples comparison. For example I could be doing only 100 mph when ET is 12.8 sec whereas the procede car is trapping >107mph. So looking at trap speed does not tell that much other than the fact that he is gaining speed at a higher rate.


That's the reason cars like Z06 and others posting 12.8 et have a higher trap speed..

[Lee Rambler]

generally speaking, the reason cars like a z06 have a higher trap at 12.8 is because of traction issues. we're talking about speed over a given distance. you can spend a second not being able to harness your power out of the gate, which dramatically affects your et but not so much your trap. 60' time is a good indicator of this.

for example, my camaro trapped 114 mph, but ran 13.0 pretty consistently because I couldn't get it to hook. my one talon I had ran high 12's, but at 108mph - it hooked great with awd. run the two on the highway and the camaro would walk the talon (did it a couple times with a friend driving one and me the other).

[turbocoins]

Originally Posted by Lee Rambler

generally speaking, the reason cars like a z06 have a higher trap at 12.8 is because of traction issues. we're talking about speed over a given distance. you can spend a second not being able to harness your power out of the gate, which dramatically affects your et but not so much your trap. 60' time is a good indicator of this.

for example, my camaro trapped 114 mph, but ran 13.0 pretty consistently because I couldn't get it to hook. my one talon I had ran high 12's, but at 108mph - it hooked great with awd. run the two on the highway and the camaro would walk the talon (did it a couple times with a friend driving one and me the other).

Agreed. If you're at interstate speeds, the launch traction no longer matters. Therefore, camaro is much more formidable than talon.

[bman5150]

Originally Posted by oddjob2021

the stock's R/T was terrible too .7 more than yours. so if he lauched at the same time you did it would be a lot closer?

Reaction time (r/t) has absolutely nothing to do with the ET. The clock doesn't start ticking until you cross the beam.

On the other hand, in a heads up race you can beat a slightly faster car if you have a better r/t. For example, I've beaten a few stock LS-1's with 13.6-13.8 ETs only because I had a better r/t = I launched my car before the LS-1s. They had better ETs, but I beat them down to the end of the track.

BTW, general rule is you can lop about 2/10s of a second off of your 1/4 mi ET if you knock 1/10 of a second off of your 60' time. If you go with that rule, the stock car with an identical 60' + drag radials on the same night, same track would have run about (2.2-1.8=.4 *2=6/10ths off that time, which puts the stocker at about 13.0 in the 1/4 apples to apples. That sounds about right. The Proceeded car with DRs and 40+ hp seems like it should have been a tad faster. ..

[oddjob2021]

Originally Posted by turbocoins

Agreed. If you're at interstate speeds, the launch traction no longer matters. Therefore, camaro is much more formidable than talon.

Yes another reason why corvettes are hwy beasts

[hool97]

Just a point about trap speed and ET. Yes in an ideal setting the trap speed for a given car and Hp level would not change at all with fast 60ft times. But we don't exist in that world.

Trap speed will increase and decrease based on 60ft time and wheel spin. In regards to 60 ft times a quick time will reduce ET like others have said but also reduce trap speed ba a small margin. This is because the trap is also based on the average hp output throughout the 1/4 mile. faster time reduce the gearing thus engine rpm and Hp obtained. Wheel spin can slow a car down substantually but the trap will go up, again the time the engine spends at peak torque through peak Hp is greater.

Look at ET and trap speeds for a single driver car combo over several runs, especially with an auto( more consistent shift) and the slower ET will have a faster trap and the quicker ET a slower one.

[1q2w3e4r]

Originally Posted by bman5150

Reaction time (r/t) has absolutely nothing to do with the ET. The clock doesn't start ticking until you cross the beam.

On the other hand, in a heads up race you can beat a slightly faster car if you have a better r/t. For example, I've beaten a few stock LS-1's with 13.6-13.8 ETs only because I had a better r/t = I launched my car before the LS-1s. They had better ETs, but I beat them down to the end of the track.

BTW, general rule is you can lop about 2/10s of a second off of your 1/4 mi ET if you knock 1/10 of a second off of your 60' time. If you go with that rule, the stock car with an identical 60' + drag radials on the same night, same track would have run about (2.2-1.8=.4 *2=6/10ths off that time, which puts the stocker at about 13.0 in the 1/4 apples to apples. That sounds about right. The Proceeded car with DRs and 40+ hp seems like it should have been a tad faster. ..

Someone's done their fair share of drag racing!

[1q2w3e4r]

Originally Posted by hool97

Just a point about trap speed and ET. Yes in an ideal setting the trap speed for a given car and Hp level would not change at all with fast 60ft times. But we don't exist in that world.

Trap speed will increase and decrease based on 60ft time and wheel spin. In regards to 60 ft times a quick time will reduce ET like others have said but also reduce trap speed ba a small margin. This is because the trap is also based on the average hp output throughout the 1/4 mile. faster time reduce the gearing thus engine rpm and Hp obtained. Wheel spin can slow a car down substantually but the trap will go up, again the time the engine spends at peak torque through peak Hp is greater.

Look at ET and trap speeds for a single driver car combo over several runs, especially with an auto( more consistent shift) and the slower ET will have a faster trap and the quicker ET a slower one.

Your looking at marginal at best differences in trap speed with wheel spin a consideration in the 60 footer. 1-2 mph at best in the data I've seen first hand of a mates BMW that traps 130+ mph. That difference is across street tyres, drag radials and a set of MT slicks, it trapped 134 on slicks and 136 on street tyres and DR. With the 60 ft time ranging up to 8 tenths of a second difference. The car has over 50 passes.

[Lee Rambler]

so we mostly all agree that trap is more representative of power and possible real world speed. now the question still stands, why isnt the supposedly much more powerful procede trapping faster? the JB2, TT, Procede and Xede all seem to trap pretty similar speeds - shoulding the procede be consistently faster? I'm still waiting to see et's on procede v2 before passing judgement...

[serge]

This thread's title should have read "Procede with DR vs stock"

Procede does not make a .8-sec improvement over stock. Keep in mind that it was two different cars with two different drivers; therefore the results are not conclusive for comparison purposes.

[serge]

Originally Posted by Dr_Dirt

I was just looking at the R&T road test summary to see what other cars can do a 12.8 1/4 mile, here is what I found...

Chevrolet Corvette Z51 (400hp) = 12.8 @ 112.5mph
Audi RS4 (420hp) = 12.8 @ 109.7mph
Ferrari 612 Scaglietti (532hp)?? = 12.8 @ 115.4mph
Shelby GT500 (500hp) = 12.8 @ 113.2mph
Mercedes S600 (510hp) = 12.8 @ 109.9mph

I was surprised to find that our cars are getting into Ferrari territory....
Imagine getting the jump on a Ferrari and hold him off until the 1/4 mile.

V2 should put the 335 into Bugatti Veyron territory

[-Ryan-]

Originally Posted by Lee Rambler

generally speaking, the reason cars like a z06 have a higher trap at 12.8 is because of traction issues. we're talking about speed over a given distance. you can spend a second not being able to harness your power out of the gate, which dramatically affects your et but not so much your trap. 60' time is a good indicator of this.

for example, my camaro trapped 114 mph, but ran 13.0 pretty consistently because I couldn't get it to hook. my one talon I had ran high 12's, but at 108mph - it hooked great with awd. run the two on the highway and the camaro would walk the talon (did it a couple times with a friend driving one and me the other).

He listed a Z51 not a Z06. A Z51 is geared slightly more aggresive and has a couple other little goodies over the standard C6 but it's definitely not Z06.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by Lee Rambler

trap speed is what you need to look at to take the driver and launch out of the equation. 2 1/2 mph increase isn't that great - certainly good, but not what I'd expect from "50-70hp" gains.

You can't just look at the trap speeds.
He got 2.5 mph faster in .8 seconds LESS time too.
Had the PROceded car had 13.6 seconds to accelerate (with the same launch times and so forth) his trap speed would of been probably 110+

Also , DR's are great for launching but not the best once rolling.
Often you put less air pressure in them for a harder launch, but that works AGAINST your trap speeds as it induces more drag and road fricition.

Furthermore regarding the other cars like Corvette getting a 12.8 but trapping much higher speeds.
You can't directly compare the cars.
The corvette is a lighter, NA car that will pull harder on the top end.
It might not get out of the hole as fast as the PROcede v1.47 335i on DR's but once it gets going it's more of a steam roller, will be reeling in the 335i the rest of the time, and be ready to pass as the two cross the line at the same time.
Turbocharged cars (especially ones with small turbos) start to run out of breath as speeds climb, so they won't accelerate as fast into triple digits.

[Lee Rambler]

speed over distance...

[1q2w3e4r]

Originally Posted by Driver72

You can't just look at the trap speeds.
He got 2.5 mph faster in .8 seconds LESS time too.
Had the PROceded car had 13.6 seconds to accelerate (with the same launch times and so forth) his trap speed would of been probably 110+

Also , DR's are great for launching but not the best once rolling.
Often you put less air pressure in them for a harder launch, but that works AGAINST your trap speeds as it induces more drag and road fricition.

Furthermore regarding the other cars like Corvette getting a 12.8 but trapping much higher speeds.

You can't directly compare the cars.
]The corvette is a lighter, NA car that will pull harder on the top end.
It might not get out of the hole as fast as the PROcede v1.47 335i on DR's but once it gets going it's more of a steam roller, will be reeling in the 335i the rest of the time, and be ready to pass as the two cross the line at the same time.

Of course you can compare the cars, the 335's 12.8 isn't as indicatative power as the Vette's as its on DR its 12.8 at lower mph shows it had a better 60 footer thats all. Its still the same test conducted with the same variables (lights, track specifications, burnout box, controlled environment etc)

Originally Posted by Driver72

Turbocharged cars (especially ones with small turbos) start to run out of breath as speeds climb, so they won't accelerate as fast into triple digits.

Simply not true, have you been in a 993 or 996 TT?

Trap speed is PURELY a function of horsepower, nothing else. It is the most accurate way to measure a cars power against another. If you know the conditions, weight and trap speed it lets you know how much power the cars making.

I've still seen nothing to indicate a proceeded 335 will keep up with let alone beat a 996 TT or a Ferrari etc like some of their owners are claiming. The trap speeds are just far too slow.

I still come back to my friends BMW that runs 136 mph on street tyres and DR and runs 134 on slicks, testing conducted at the same track with over 50 passes. Therefore drag radials/slicks/street tyres have a minimal effect on mph.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by 1q2w3e4r

Of course you can compare the cars, the 335's 12.8 isn't as indicatative power as the Vette's as its on DR its 12.8 at lower mph shows it had a better 60 footer thats all. Its still the same test conducted with the same variables (lights, track specifications, burnout box, controlled environment etc)

Trap speed is PURELY a function of horsepower, nothing else. It is the most accurate way to measure a cars power against another. If you know the conditions, weight and trap speed it lets you know how much power the cars making.

I've still seen nothing to indicate a proceeded 335 will keep up with let alone beat a 996 TT or a Ferrari etc like some of their owners are claiming. The trap speeds are just far too slow.



Simply not true, have you been in a 993 or 996 TT?

Trap speed is PURELY a function of horsepower, nothing else. It is the most accurate way to measure a cars power against another. If you know the conditions, weight and trap speed it lets you know how much power the cars making.

I've still seen nothing to indicate a proceeded 335 will keep up with let alone beat a 996 TT or a Ferrari etc like some of their owners are claiming. The trap speeds are just far too slow.

I still come back to my friends BMW that runs 136 mph on street tyres and DR and runs 134 on slicks, testing conducted at the same track with over 50 passes. Therefore drag radials/slicks/street tyres have a minimal effect on mph.

You missed my point about comparing the Corvette's ET and trap speed to the 335i's.
The Corvette's time that was posted by R&T was on a different track, different day, different everything.
The point was, just because two or three or three hundred different cars get an ET of 12.8 doesn't mean they will all have trap speeds that are similiar.
You CAN NOT look at the ET of one car and the expect just because the 335i got the same ET that the trap speeds should be similiar.

And you car wrong about turbocharged cars.
I have driven a 996TT for 10 days.
They are fast cars. but take a NA car of a larger displacement that is equal in weight, equal in power and equal in gearing and at sea level, rest assured, it will pull away from the 996 TT as speeds climb into triple digits.
It is a FACT that smaller displacement smaller turbocharged cars will lose more on the top end than a larger displacement high revving NA engine of the same power.
The turbos run out of breath.

I've owned and raced many turbocharged cars since 1986.
Turbocharged cars are MUCH better in the low and mid range than they are in the top end.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by serge

This thread's title should have read "Procede with DR vs stock"

Procede does not make a .8-sec improvement over stock. Keep in mind that it was two different cars with two different drivers; therefore the results are not conclusive for comparison purposes.

Unless your using a G-tech or similair device.

I'm not much into drag racing, but the traps and times do illustrate a particuliar cars performance. Which is helpful when discussing certain aspects of how a car will perform on a track.

Handling, braking and response is more indicative of the value of a car, I personally don't understand drag racing other than the thrill of it. But I also don't harbor any ill feelings for those who do enjoy it.




-Garrett

[bman5150]

Originally Posted by Garrett

I personally don't understand drag racing other than the thrill of it. But I also don't harbor any ill feelings for those who do enjoy it.




-Garrett

Fair enough, but it really is a rush! You should give it a shot if you ever have the opportunity. The 335i should put many a car to shame at the local 1/4 mile track! And it's far cheaper to drag race vs. road race. And I've never road raced, but I'd love to try it some time. Think I'll wait until I get the proper car. .. the stang is an understeering beast!

This is a fun forum - I'm enjoying learning about the 335i - a car on my spring 2008 shopping list.

[Lee Rambler]

The point was, just because two or three or three hundred different cars get an ET of 12.8 doesn't mean they will all have trap speeds that are similiar.
You CAN NOT look at the ET of one car and the expect just because the 335i got the same ET that the trap speeds should be similiar.

that's the point I was trying to make as well. And the ET is much much more affected by a driver's skill and the ability of the vehicle to hook up, whereas trap speed is pretty much decided by the power and weight of the vehicle. that's why I look at the trap speed to tell me how much power piggyback A is making vs piggyback B vs piggyback C. And so far, I can't say any one really has a discernable advantage of any other... still waiting on some real results from procede v2 though...