[midlife]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Where did you come up with that, its totally Dependant on the car, in extreme cases I'm sure you could get plenty more than 25hp.

sorry if i was not cear:
looking for what approx whp gains on a totally stock car with 50/50 water/meth injection added,

and approx whp gains on a stock car that has a JB2 or proceed 1.47 tune.

[midlife]

Originally Posted by e.n335

If you would get walked you can strike back soon .

eugene,

i went to the snow performance website and studied the water/meth install instructions.... not to intimidating, and i believe it is within the abilities of my help here and myself.


my only current hesitation is your comment about meth being very corrosive to aluminum, and your concerns with our 335 motors. do you know yet if water/meth is safe for us?

if it is safe, i am thinking of going for it (in a slow, deliberate way).

thanks

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by midlife

my only current hesitation is your comment about meth being very corrosive to aluminum, and your concerns with our 335 motors. do you know yet if water/meth is safe for us?

You basically have to drench it in meth and leave it that way for some time. You're talking about injecting small amounts of meth into a massive CFM air stream SOME of the time. It does not get a chance to keep in contact with any of the surfaces for long and even then there is barely any of it.

Not to mention that its corrosive properties are heavily neutralized when mixed with water.

[deck]

Still waiting for this solenoid I cant WAIT to get the meth spraying again.
hopefully without any of

-deck

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by midlife

eugene,

i went to the snow performance website and studied the water/meth install instructions.... not to intimidating, and i believe it is within the abilities of my help here and myself.


my only current hesitation is your comment about meth being very corrosive to aluminum, and your concerns with our 335 motors. do you know yet if water/meth is safe for us?

if it is safe, i am thinking of going for it (in a slow, deliberate way).

thanks

I had my discussions with an analytical chemist today and got confirmation that methanol is very corrosive to aluminium, regardless if it is mixed with water or not, regardless if is is atomized or not.

I am uncertain what this means to our N54 engines now.

I'll stay away from water/methanol injection until someone can explain why corrosion is no issue, based on facts. Water injection without methanol could be interesting.

- Eugen

wikipedia:
... one of the drawbacks of methanol as a fuel is its corrosivity to some metals, including aluminium. Methanol, although a weak acid, attacks the oxide coating that normally protects the aluminium from corrosion ...

other source:
... I was wondering how long it would be before I started hearing issues with these injection units. You tune your car with these units and when they fail, and they will fail, your motor goes south. This is especially going to hold true with non forged cars. I used one of these on my blown small block 20 years ago. My biggest issue back then was corrosion. I ended up eliminating it after a couple of months. This technology is like history, somebody reinvents it every twenty years like it's never been done before. It's just a band aid for an improperly designed system. My feeling is, lose the system and run your car on good gas for your tune. If you don't want to do that, then lower your boost ...

other source:
...

Water Injection:

Water injection is a method for cooling the combustion chambers of engines by adding water to the incoming fuel-air mixture, allowing for greater compression ratios and largely eliminating the problem of engine knocking. This effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel, meaning that performance gains can be obtained when used in conjunction with a supercharger or turbocharger, altered spark ignition timing, and other modifications.

The initial injection of water cools the fuel-air mixture somewhat, which may allow for more mixture to enter the cylinder. But the greater effect comes later during combustion when the water takes in significant amounts of heat energy as it converts from liquid to gas (steam), increasing piston pressure (torque) and reducing the peak temperature with its resultant NOx formation as well as the amount of energy absorbed into the cylinder walls. The duration of combustion is said to be longer.

An interesting side effect that has been reported by some is that water injection effectively "steam cleans" the engine interior, resulting in less carbon residue buildup. Glowing hot carbon deposits are a known cause of knocking.

Fuel economy can be improved with water injection, although the effect on most engines with no other modification, (getting your ECU tuned), appears to be rather limited or even negligible in some cases.

Control over the water injection is important. It needs to be injected only when the engine is heavily loaded and the throttle is wide open; as with other systems which need to monitor engine load, this can be determined by manifold vacuum, which is low when the engine is loaded and high when it is unloaded; however, provision must be made for starting, when the manifold vacuum is also low but water injection is undesirable.

Reports of more rapid corrosion of the steel and cast iron components of engines to which water injection has been added suggest that more frequent oil changes, particularly when the engine does not experience sustained high temperature operation to evaporate any water from the oil, are prudent.
Many water injection systems use a mixture of water and alcohol (usually 50/50), partly because the alcohol is combustible, while water is not; in addition, the alcohol serves as an antifreeze for the water.

Methanol & Water Injection:

The water injection section applies here as well, with the following info added in:

Methanol, also known as methyl alcohol, wood alcohol or wood spirits, is a chemical compound with chemical formula CH3OH. It is the simplest alcohol, and is a light, volatile, colorless, flammable, poisonous liquid with a distinctive odor that is somewhat milder and sweeter than ethanol (ethyl alcohol).

Methanol is a high octane fuel (113 octane*) that is extremely resistant to detonation. When using methanol injection, it is advised to mix with distilled water being that under-hood temperatures can turn methanol into steam being that methanol boils at 148.46°F (64.7°C) - this in turn can cause your car to not inject methanol.

Methanol & water injection is also an effective means of cooling the charge air. Methanol is the preferred alcohol due to its elemental properties (being that it's miscible), and is normally mixed with water to prevent evaporation. Methanol is typically injected before the throttle body.

This both cools the combustion process but adds additional high octane fuel to the fuel air mix raising the effective octane to levels high enough to push knock limited performance to new limits.

Methanol, unlike nitrous oxide or forced induction itself, doesn't add more oxygen to the charge, but by its low evaporation point changes from a liquid to a gas as its introduced into the air charge.

The evaporation process uses the heat from the intake charge to complete the phase change. The alcohol is also a fuel in the charge which will cause a rich condition if used in excess. Due to the lower intake temperatures and denser air charge more power is exerted from the engine.

"Extra" science information:

Water and methanol are miscible in all proportions. (Miscible is the chemistry term that refers to the property of various substances, particularly liquids, that allows them to be mixed together and form a single homogeneous phase. Substances are said to be immiscible if they cannot be mixed together, for example, oil and water.)
One of the drawbacks of methanol as a fuel is its corrosivity to some metals, including aluminum. It will eventually totally dissolve aluminum.
Methanol is not the same as denatured alcohol. Denatured alcohol is ethanol containing a percentage of methanol (to make it unsafe/useless for human consumption but still useful for industrial processes. This is done in order to make it exempt from taxes that apply to potable alcohol).

...

[M&M]

We have been using meth injection on a friend's Ford Escort Cosworth for around 4 years now. He has 2 jets, one in the intercooler inlet pipe, one in the outlet pipe. About 2.5 years ago he put a new intercooler. Aluminium and all those good things. He has been using an 80% meth mix all along and never uses water.

Recently his intercooler got damaged in an impact with a bird or something like that. We took it to our intercooler guys who stripped it in front of us to assess the damage to the core. There were ZERO signs of corrosion to the core or any other part of the cooler. The only damage was from the impact.

I don't know if this proves anything, but he has been spraying for so long and the jet is extremely close to the intercooler and yet the aluminium has not corroded. Maybe it takes a lot more years to show deterioration, but over 2 years there was none.

[335iheLLraiseR]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Where has M&M been, can't figure out which system he's using. None of the ones on the aquamist site look like the ones on the turbonetics site. Also anyone know what system schneid and bimmerman use?

schneid has a snow performance kit. don't know the specs though.

[deck]

Thank you for that information. I also know a few people who have been spraying for a while now, and were concerned about corrosion, but never could find any. I believe it would take far much more time then the time we will even own the vehicle.

-deck

[midlife]

Originally Posted by O-cha

You basically have to drench it in meth and leave it that way for some time. You're talking about injecting small amounts of meth into a massive CFM air stream SOME of the time. It does not get a chance to keep in contact with any of the surfaces for long and even then there is barely any of it.

Not to mention that its corrosive properties are heavily neutralized when mixed with water.

thanks for your comments....i certainly hope u are correct.
btw, are u running water/meth or planning to run it anytime soon?

thanks

[M&M]

Originally Posted by O-cha

I re-read the thread and the instructions and I can't figure it out, I only see one control signal, can you use a map signal and an rpm signal at the same time one for threshold and one for gain? From how I'm reading this there's only one input for both?

There is no rpm signal. You use any 0-5V signal for the threshold. I used map manifold. It just comes on at a certain MAP voltage. For example, mine is triggered around 10psi.

The gain is not rpm related at all. It is relative to the input voltage from the sensor that triggered the WIS. So in my case its the Map manilfold again. It starts at 10psi, and depending on how you have set the gain it goes up as the boost climbs to 12-14psi or wherever.

The problem is our cars make a lot of peak boost and then fall off (unless you have V2). So it will spray less as the rpm climbs past 4500. Which is not really an issue, I don't think. If you set the gain quite aggressively, it can ramp up quickly to a high pump duty cycle by 4500 and then it will taper down at high revs. But it still does a very good job of cooling.

Originally Posted by O-cha

Also you said you got your kit from aquamist directly for cheaper, did you email them or what? Oh yea and which obdII scanner are you using?

Yeah we been using them for so long that we got a good relationship and just bought it directly. I use the VAG-com scanner.

[midlife]

Originally Posted by M&M

We have been using meth injection on a friend's Ford Escort Cosworth for around 4 years now. He has 2 jets, one in the intercooler inlet pipe, one in the outlet pipe. About 2.5 years ago he put a new intercooler. Aluminium and all those good things. He has been using an 80% meth mix all along and never uses water.

Recently his intercooler got damaged in an impact with a bird or something like that. We took it to our intercooler guys who stripped it in front of us to assess the damage to the core. There were ZERO signs of corrosion to the core or any other part of the cooler. The only damage was from the impact.

I don't know if this proves anything, but he has been spraying for so long and the jet is extremely close to the intercooler and yet the aluminium has not corroded. Maybe it takes a lot more years to show deterioration, but over 2 years there was none.

thanks to m&m and eugene for very helpful info.
BUT wow, between M&M and eugene's info, there seems to be no clear answer to this puzzle.

[e.n335]

Yes, very different results. In fact some of us use water/meth already. We will see how it turns out. I would prefer M&M is right.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by M&M

There is no rpm signal. You use any 0-5V signal for the threshold. I used map manifold. It just comes on at a certain MAP voltage. For example, mine is triggered around 10psi.

The gain is not rpm related at all. It is relative to the input voltage from the sensor that triggered the WIS. So in my case its the Map manilfold again. It starts at 10psi, and depending on how you have set the gain it goes up as the boost climbs to 12-14psi or wherever.

The problem is our cars make a lot of peak boost and then fall off (unless you have V2). So it will spray less as the rpm climbs past 4500. Which is not really an issue, I don't think. If you set the gain quite aggressively, it can ramp up quickly to a high pump duty cycle by 4500 and then it will taper down at high revs. But it still does a very good job of cooling.

Right see that's what I thought looking at the directions, but I mean your going to want a lot more being injected at high RPMs, it's really more of an airflow based thing :/ your going to have X amount per cylinder at 3k RPMS and then really something like 1/2 at 6k how it seems anyway. but at the same time thats not really what your logs were showing.

And they told me to buy 50 units or bugger off

Originally Posted by midlife

thanks for your comments....i certainly hope u are correct.
btw, are u running water/meth or planning to run it anytime soon?

thanks

When I find one I like that costs what it should.

[O-cha]

M&M what scanner do you use!! grrr

[M&M]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Right see that's what I thought looking at the directions, but I mean your going to want a lot more being injected at high RPMs, it's really more of an airflow based thing :/ your going to have X amount per cylinder at 3k RPMS and then really something like 1/2 at 6k how it seems anyway. but at the same time thats not really what your logs were showing.

Yeah, if we had a MAF, we could have used that signal for the gain. Or even an injector pulse, but this kit does not support injector pulse at this stage. It seems to work fine with the MAP though. Once it ramps up to high duty cycle, I don't think it comes back down at high revs. The blue LED flashes brightly all the way to redline.

I'm using a VAG-com cable & software as the scanner.

[deck]

For the snowperformance kit, i had to tap into my boost lines.

-deck

[radgator1]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Right see that's what I thought looking at the directions, but I mean your going to want a lot more being injected at high RPMs, it's really more of an airflow based thing :/ your going to have X amount per cylinder at 3k RPMS and then really something like 1/2 at 6k how it seems anyway. but at the same time thats not really what your logs were showing.

And they told me to buy 50 units or bugger off



When I find one I like that costs what it should.

Sounds like a group buy in the making