New Track Feeler: Tri State Area/Philly

rocat14 · 12-15-2015, 05:27 PM

I was speaking to a few of my coworkers, and we came to the conclusion that we wanted to build track. Many of us are enthusiasts, and have now become enthused with the idea of making this happen.

Currently this is just an idea and I am in the pre-pre-preliminary stages of finding out what the costs/requirements are for building a proper track. To give very loose numbers, we would be working with approximately 15,000,000. This number is subject to change depending on the findings of my research.

The ideal scenario would be about a 4-5 mile track. Something that is safe enough for beginners to get on the track and have fun, but also can be challenging. The idea would be to host track days, schooling, races and even facilitate a few drag strips. Ideally, it would have 3-4 buildings as well as a service area which would be indoors and give drivers the opportunity work on cars for pre/post laps.

I have absolutely no idea what the costs associated with building this are, and I do have the ability to gain extra funding but I need to be able to approximate the demand for the area. What I would like to know is, people within the tri-state area, would something like this interest you. This course would probably be located about 20 minutes from Philadelphia. This location is also subject to change, because I am also in the process of looking at other locations that could make more logical sense.

I would love to hear feedback about this, and in the next few weeks will be able to provide more concrete ideas about this concept. This is the first of many forums I am going to reach out to, in the hopes to see what the enthusiasts around the area think about this idea. If there truly is interest in something like this, it can definitely happen. If there is a market and there is demand, this is something that could happen.

Mavus · 12-17-2015, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocat14

I was speaking to a few of my coworkers, and we came to the conclusion that we wanted to build track. Many of us are enthusiasts, and have now become enthused with the idea of making this happen.

Currently this is just an idea and I am in the pre-pre-preliminary stages of finding out what the costs/requirements are for building a proper track. To give very loose numbers, we would be working with approximately 15,000,000. This number is subject to change depending on the findings of my research.

The ideal scenario would be about a 4-5 mile track. Something that is safe enough for beginners to get on the track and have fun, but also can be challenging. The idea would be to host track days, schooling, races and even facilitate a few drag strips. Ideally, it would have 3-4 buildings as well as a service area which would be indoors and give drivers the opportunity work on cars for pre/post laps.

I have absolutely no idea what the costs associated with building this are, and I do have the ability to gain extra funding but I need to be able to approximate the demand for the area. What I would like to know is, people within the tri-state area, would something like this interest you. This course would probably be located about 20 minutes from Philadelphia. This location is also subject to change, because I am also in the process of looking at other locations that could make more logical sense.

I would love to hear feedback about this, and in the next few weeks will be able to provide more concrete ideas about this concept. This is the first of many forums I am going to reach out to, in the hopes to see what the enthusiasts around the area think about this idea. If there truly is interest in something like this, it can definitely happen. If there is a market and there is demand, this is something that could happen.

I have been thinking about this same idea for awhile now. I believe the business sustainability is the key question. What is the business model? Naturally, NJMP is a direct competitor.

I think it may work but it may need various activities to support operation during slow months. Some of those that I was thinking about are karting, teenage driving school with simulators, skid pad, drag strips etc. I do think this area deserves a nice 4-5 mi track (with room to expand) that would differentiate it from other tracks.

bmwmsport · 12-17-2015, 04:56 PM

If this works out, I'll have to drive up from Jackson, MS

Would be interested to see more tracks around. I am just getting into racing but isn't a 4-5 mile track pretty long?? I thought most were 2-3.

Anyway, good luck!! Hope it pans out.

rocat14 · 12-17-2015, 04:59 PM

Yes 4-5 is long but that's sort of the point too. The idea is to design it with a longer track with some straight bits removable from other segmented track portions. An entire lap may not be 4-5 miles, but the length of all Tarmac will be 4-5 miles. I am going to post this across the other bimmer forums in hope to get some support (not financial). Hopefully we can get enough of a following to go through with this.

rocat14 · 12-17-2015, 05:02 PM

Also, in regards to the business model: there's a few things going into consideration that allow for a slightly more diverse revenue generation:

A more diverse track, teenage driving school, performance driving, go carting, rental for testing (this is TBD working on an agreement with a few companies), company retreats. There are actually a few more things I can't disclose yet, because the ideas are unique to this facility as it stands.

I will work on this as much as there is feedback. If anyone wants to contact me directly, please feel free to PM me.

bmwmsport · 12-17-2015, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocat14

Yes 4-5 is long but that's sort of the point too. The idea is to design it with a longer track with some straight bits removable from other segmented track portions. An entire lap may not be 4-5 miles, but the length of all Tarmac will be 4-5 miles. I am going to post this across the other bimmer forums in hope to get some support (not financial). Hopefully we can get enough of a following to go through with this.

To be able to afford all this how do you plan to fund?

Just curious, would love to see this work but one has to have a feasible plan to be able to execute it correctly.

Where would you buy land?

Who could design a track? A regular civil engineer or would you have to hire a specific one to design race tracks?

rocat14 · 12-17-2015, 05:56 PM

Great questions, as far as the business model I cannot say too much just yet. In order to fully fund this project, I have 2 major resources (apart from my own/coworkers) where I can gather the funding. The major issue here is ensuring that the community wants** this course in a location surrounding Philly. If this is the case, the two separate investors will commit to the funding. I also, am in the process of generating documentation that illustrates the business model, and once all of this gets processed I can open it up to the community. At that point, a few of your questions will be answered. Currently we are estimating approximately 10,000,000 to be the required funding, but this is TBD and based on a few things that are subject to change. There are two major options, increase the track length and the overall owned land, or focus more on location. I have yet to find out what would be in a higher demand. Would people consider driving an extra 30-60 miles for a much larger track/isolated experience or would they prefer a track that is more easily accessible (off a major highway or airport - like close to Philly).

rocat14 · 12-17-2015, 05:58 PM

Also forgot to mention, my coworkers are all engineers of some sort - and we all have friends who are civil/mechanical engineers. I am on the fence about if we should design the track in house using other great tracks as a model, or if we should have someone come and design it. Allocating funds towards having it designed are costly, and maybe not required just yet. We might be able to come up with something very good ourselves.

In my mind, there will be good fun for all levels, and we can introduce more technical aspects of the course through smart track design.

shivaswrath · 12-23-2015, 12:31 AM

I'm down!

rocat14 · 12-23-2015, 10:20 AM

We are going I be creating a website with a few tools for the purposes of understanding the market. That should be live in the upcoming weeks.

Is there anything specific that would be of interest? Also, we will have multiple corners that can be voted on to be put in the track. I am hoping to have some social networking setup for this in the near future as well.

bmwmsport · 12-23-2015, 10:29 AM

At this point I think your biggest goal is to get the word out and have some plans drawn up, maybe even one showing elevation changes too. Just a thought.

rocat14 · 01-13-2016, 09:42 AM

The website should be going live this weekend, hopefully by Sunday.

Getting the word out there is definitely the best way to go about doing this -- I am hoping that with an actual website with resources and centralized plans can be something that people will visit for information. We will have a signup and a newsletter to start.

The response has been good, especially considering we have not done any marketing or social media pushes yet.

The HACK · 01-14-2016, 04:14 PM

Wrong place to ask.

http://www.trackhq.com/forums/

Give that a try if you haven't already. This isn't the ideal target market you're looking for.

sirdaft1 · 01-21-2016, 03:02 PM

Do market research. Cannot stress this enough (more than a thread on some obscure BMW forum). If it were me, I would research the hell out of what has led to the success or failure of many other tracks. Find a way to contact owners who have failed and pick their brains about what happened/the challenges faced and what they would do differently. I have loose connections with the owner of Blackhawk Farms Raceway here in Illinois. They did a full build out of new buildings recently and really breathed life back into the track. A guy like that might be a good person to reach out to, to get insight from - and perhaps ask to join your advisory board if you are seriously considering this endeavor.

FamilyManTrackSedan · 01-27-2016, 02:10 PM

It's not the wrong place to ask if you're gauging driver interest.

This would be exciting. It seems there's a void between NJMP, Pocono, Watkins Glen, Lime Rock, Palmer, and Thompson, in the northern NJ/NY state area - and hey that happens to be right where I live, about 2-4 hours from any of these.

So if you're going to spend millions to do this please do it right by me and the thousands of other enthusiasts here.

PrematureApex · 02-22-2016, 02:01 PM

Look at Liberty Bell Motorsports park.

Took damn near a decade to get all the permits through, etc.

Now that they're finally ready to break ground, the guy ran out of money...

http://www.libertybellmp.com/

https://www.facebook.com/Liberty-Bel...8098162565449/

nynyny · 02-22-2016, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Look at Liberty Bell Motorsports park.

Took damn near a decade to get all the permits through, etc.

Now that they're finally ready to break ground, the guy ran out of money...

http://www.libertybellmp.com/

https://www.facebook.com/Liberty-Bel...8098162565449/

Ya, I was going to chime in and say that one of the biggest barriers I've heard of is permits and regulations (environmental and otherwise).

That being said it would be great if your group could pull this off.

jimj911 · 03-30-2016, 08:43 AM

was there ever a website released for this?

12-15-2015, 05:27 PM	#1
rocat14 Private 3 Rep 67 Posts Drives: Sapphire Black 335i xDrive MT Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: United States iTrader: (0)	New Track Feeler: Tri State Area/Philly I was speaking to a few of my coworkers, and we came to the conclusion that we wanted to build track. Many of us are enthusiasts, and have now become enthused with the idea of making this happen. Currently this is just an idea and I am in the pre-pre-preliminary stages of finding out what the costs/requirements are for building a proper track. To give very loose numbers, we would be working with approximately 15,000,000. This number is subject to change depending on the findings of my research. The ideal scenario would be about a 4-5 mile track. Something that is safe enough for beginners to get on the track and have fun, but also can be challenging. The idea would be to host track days, schooling, races and even facilitate a few drag strips. Ideally, it would have 3-4 buildings as well as a service area which would be indoors and give drivers the opportunity work on cars for pre/post laps. I have absolutely no idea what the costs associated with building this are, and I do have the ability to gain extra funding but I need to be able to approximate the demand for the area. What I would like to know is, people within the tri-state area, would something like this interest you. This course would probably be located about 20 minutes from Philadelphia. This location is also subject to change, because I am also in the process of looking at other locations that could make more logical sense. I would love to hear feedback about this, and in the next few weeks will be able to provide more concrete ideas about this concept. This is the first of many forums I am going to reach out to, in the hopes to see what the enthusiasts around the area think about this idea. If there truly is interest in something like this, it can definitely happen. If there is a market and there is demand, this is something that could happen.
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12-17-2015, 04:56 PM	#3
bmwmsport Captain 128 Rep 950 Posts Drives: E90 335i Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Jackson, MS iTrader: (0)	If this works out, I'll have to drive up from Jackson, MS Would be interested to see more tracks around. I am just getting into racing but isn't a 4-5 mile track pretty long?? I thought most were 2-3. Anyway, good luck!! Hope it pans out. __________________ 2010 E90 335i Le Mans Blue Metallic // Saddle Brown // M Sport // iDrive // Comfort Access // Blown By Twins
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12-17-2015, 04:59 PM	#4
rocat14 Private 3 Rep 67 Posts Drives: Sapphire Black 335i xDrive MT Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: United States iTrader: (0)	Yes 4-5 is long but that's sort of the point too. The idea is to design it with a longer track with some straight bits removable from other segmented track portions. An entire lap may not be 4-5 miles, but the length of all Tarmac will be 4-5 miles. I am going to post this across the other bimmer forums in hope to get some support (not financial). Hopefully we can get enough of a following to go through with this. __________________ ------------------------ 2009 335xi MT (Daily) ----------------------------------------- 2011 Cayman S MT (For the Twisties)
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12-17-2015, 05:02 PM	#5
rocat14 Private 3 Rep 67 Posts Drives: Sapphire Black 335i xDrive MT Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: United States iTrader: (0)	Also, in regards to the business model: there's a few things going into consideration that allow for a slightly more diverse revenue generation: A more diverse track, teenage driving school, performance driving, go carting, rental for testing (this is TBD working on an agreement with a few companies), company retreats. There are actually a few more things I can't disclose yet, because the ideas are unique to this facility as it stands. I will work on this as much as there is feedback. If anyone wants to contact me directly, please feel free to PM me. __________________ ------------------------ 2009 335xi MT (Daily) ----------------------------------------- 2011 Cayman S MT (For the Twisties)
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12-17-2015, 05:56 PM	#7
rocat14 Private 3 Rep 67 Posts Drives: Sapphire Black 335i xDrive MT Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: United States iTrader: (0)	Great questions, as far as the business model I cannot say too much just yet. In order to fully fund this project, I have 2 major resources (apart from my own/coworkers) where I can gather the funding. The major issue here is ensuring that the community wants** this course in a location surrounding Philly. If this is the case, the two separate investors will commit to the funding. I also, am in the process of generating documentation that illustrates the business model, and once all of this gets processed I can open it up to the community. At that point, a few of your questions will be answered. Currently we are estimating approximately 10,000,000 to be the required funding, but this is TBD and based on a few things that are subject to change. There are two major options, increase the track length and the overall owned land, or focus more on location. I have yet to find out what would be in a higher demand. Would people consider driving an extra 30-60 miles for a much larger track/isolated experience or would they prefer a track that is more easily accessible (off a major highway or airport - like close to Philly). __________________ ------------------------ 2009 335xi MT (Daily) ----------------------------------------- 2011 Cayman S MT (For the Twisties)
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12-17-2015, 05:58 PM	#8
rocat14 Private 3 Rep 67 Posts Drives: Sapphire Black 335i xDrive MT Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: United States iTrader: (0)	Also forgot to mention, my coworkers are all engineers of some sort - and we all have friends who are civil/mechanical engineers. I am on the fence about if we should design the track in house using other great tracks as a model, or if we should have someone come and design it. Allocating funds towards having it designed are costly, and maybe not required just yet. We might be able to come up with something very good ourselves. In my mind, there will be good fun for all levels, and we can introduce more technical aspects of the course through smart track design. __________________ ------------------------ 2009 335xi MT (Daily) ----------------------------------------- 2011 Cayman S MT (For the Twisties)
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12-23-2015, 12:31 AM	#9
shivaswrath Brigadier General 657 Rep 4,320 Posts Drives: 2012 335i Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lost in NJ iTrader: (3)	I'm down! __________________ CURRENT: 2017 RS3 (miss you guys) SOLD: 2012 335i Mineral Gray M Performance Exhaust/Brakes/Suspension/LSD\|Bav Stage 1/AMP\|\|ER CP/IC/DP/OC \| Dinan CAI/N55 PWG BIG TURBO\|BMWF30.com
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12-23-2015, 10:20 AM	#10
rocat14 Private 3 Rep 67 Posts Drives: Sapphire Black 335i xDrive MT Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: United States iTrader: (0)	We are going I be creating a website with a few tools for the purposes of understanding the market. That should be live in the upcoming weeks. Is there anything specific that would be of interest? Also, we will have multiple corners that can be voted on to be put in the track. I am hoping to have some social networking setup for this in the near future as well. __________________ ------------------------ 2009 335xi MT (Daily) ----------------------------------------- 2011 Cayman S MT (For the Twisties)
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-23-2015, 10:29 AM	#11
bmwmsport Captain 128 Rep 950 Posts Drives: E90 335i Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Jackson, MS iTrader: (0)	At this point I think your biggest goal is to get the word out and have some plans drawn up, maybe even one showing elevation changes too. Just a thought. __________________ 2010 E90 335i Le Mans Blue Metallic // Saddle Brown // M Sport // iDrive // Comfort Access // Blown By Twins
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01-13-2016, 09:42 AM	#12
rocat14 Private 3 Rep 67 Posts Drives: Sapphire Black 335i xDrive MT Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: United States iTrader: (0)	The website should be going live this weekend, hopefully by Sunday. Getting the word out there is definitely the best way to go about doing this -- I am hoping that with an actual website with resources and centralized plans can be something that people will visit for information. We will have a signup and a newsletter to start. The response has been good, especially considering we have not done any marketing or social media pushes yet. __________________ ------------------------ 2009 335xi MT (Daily) ----------------------------------------- 2011 Cayman S MT (For the Twisties)
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01-14-2016, 04:14 PM	#13
The HACK Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class 1834 Rep 5,337 Posts Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day iTrader: (1)	Wrong place to ask. http://www.trackhq.com/forums/ Give that a try if you haven't already. This isn't the ideal target market you're looking for. __________________ Sitting on a beat-up office chair in front of a 5 year old computer in a basement floor, sipping on stale coffee watching a bunch of meaningless numbers scrolling aimlessly on a dimly lit 19” monitor.
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01-21-2016, 03:02 PM	#14
sirdaft1 Brigadier General 2268 Rep 3,353 Posts Drives: F85 X5M Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Chicago West Burbs iTrader: (9) Garage List 2016 BMW X5M [9.00] 2012 BMW X5 35i (SOLD) [9.67] 1989 BMW 325i Track ... [10.00] 2007 E90 WTCC Wideb ... [8.50]	Do market research. Cannot stress this enough (more than a thread on some obscure BMW forum). If it were me, I would research the hell out of what has led to the success or failure of many other tracks. Find a way to contact owners who have failed and pick their brains about what happened/the challenges faced and what they would do differently. I have loose connections with the owner of Blackhawk Farms Raceway here in Illinois. They did a full build out of new buildings recently and really breathed life back into the track. A guy like that might be a good person to reach out to, to get insight from - and perhaps ask to join your advisory board if you are seriously considering this endeavor.
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01-27-2016, 02:10 PM	#15
FamilyManTrackSedan Lieutenant 112 Rep 409 Posts Drives: 2008 pre-lci 335xi 6mt sedan Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: NJ iTrader: (6)	It's not the wrong place to ask if you're gauging driver interest. This would be exciting. It seems there's a void between NJMP, Pocono, Watkins Glen, Lime Rock, Palmer, and Thompson, in the northern NJ/NY state area - and hey that happens to be right where I live, about 2-4 hours from any of these. So if you're going to spend millions to do this please do it right by me and the thousands of other enthusiasts here.
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02-22-2016, 02:01 PM	#16
PrematureApex Colonel 851 Rep 2,412 Posts Drives: N55 X1, N54 135, s54 m3 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Philadelphia iTrader: (0)	Look at Liberty Bell Motorsports park. Took damn near a decade to get all the permits through, etc. Now that they're finally ready to break ground, the guy ran out of money... http://www.libertybellmp.com/ https://www.facebook.com/Liberty-Bel...8098162565449/ __________________ '02 S54 M3 (500/500 GC/Koni) '08 N54 135 (JB4, DCI, BMW PS/Bilstein B6s, H&R M3 FSB, Strongflex FCABs) '14 N55 X1 (JB4, BMS DP, BMS Intake, Alpina TCU reflash, H&R Sports, Bilstein B6s, E93 M3 RSB, Strongflex FCABs, baby seat) '08 N54 535xi touring (Bilstein B6s, Downpipes, MHD tune, baby seat)
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03-30-2016, 08:43 AM	#18
jimj911 When the F#$% did we get ice cream? 150 Rep 101 Posts Drives: 2008 BMW 335i (E92) Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Kintnersville, PA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2014 BMW 535d Msport [0.00] 2014 Dodge 3500 dually [10.00] 2008 BMW 335i E92 [10.00] 1999 Jeep Wrangler [0.00]	was there ever a website released for this? __________________ '08 BMW 335i, Dinan Stage 2 '14 BMW 535d Xdrive Msport, Stage 2 '14 Dodge 3500 Cummins Longhorn dually '15 BMW X5M
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