[natedog7700]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

If you are on stock suspension and brakes, Evo hands down, don't even try. Even with heavily modded car like mine, I still have problem keeping up with it on a slightly damp track, given the same driving skill and tires. AWD is a godsend on tight corners or less grippy surfaces.

That said your car, with that RB turbo and inlets, will have a significant edge on horsepower track like Road America, IF you can get your corner exist done right. But assuming you are on stock radiator and oil cooler, limp mode will get you in a lap or two with the power your engine is making...

I agree, with less then ideal surface grip, the EVO will easily take the win. Im talking about the EVO and BMW having the same exact tire/wheel combo on a dry day with everything else stock.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by natedog7700

I agree, with less then ideal surface grip, the EVO will easily take the win. Im talking about the EVO and BMW having the same exact tire/wheel combo on a dry day with everything else stock.

Stock 335i will lose big time vs a stock Evo. No lsd, lack of camber, plus 500lb vs the Evo 8/9, and a floaty suspension. What do you expect???

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by The HACK

No it's not. The ONLY difference between AX and track, is AX is like tracking on meth. Stuff happens much faster. But the dynamics of vehicle weight transfer, principles behind going fast in either sport, and the actual PHYSICS behind both are identical.

The "other" difference(s) between AX and track are all semantics and logistics, i.e. AX you NEVER share track space with other vehicles, vs. tracking you do, and relationship with timing (AX start/finish doesn't always overlap, while track DOES).

ANYONE who tells you that AX and tracking is different hasn't done one or the other (and do it well).

I would not simply label road course as AX on meth. You spend a majority of your time in weight transfer where as dynamic handling (how quickly you can turn the nose of the car) is more important, whereas on road course, ultimate grip is much more important, particularly on bigger track. I would imagine AX guys would run noticeably stiffer dampers and a stiffer rear end on our RWD cars because of that.

[natedog7700]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Stock 335i will lose big time vs a stock Evo. No lsd, lack of camber, plus 500lb vs the Evo 8/9, and a floaty suspension. What do you expect???

I know i know lol. BMW does have E LSD so i wouldn't rule that out completely and the sport suspension is floaty but not terrible. After all, they are both street cars so neither have the suspension to compete with a mid grade coil over system. Evo 10 is actually about 50lbs lighter (negligible difference) but yeah the evo 8/9 is 3250 (about 300lbs lighter) compared to what i weighed in at (3550). All in all, i dont expect the 335 to come out on top but rather hold its own towards an older EVO 8/9.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by natedog7700

Not true. Your speaking to someone who also has experience with both so i don't know where you've been. They both have common characteristics like you said, but they are totally different in their own ways as well and someone to say otherwise, is full of crap IMO.

Look. If a car is faster on an AX course it will likely be faster on the track. The physics behind going fast in either is THE SAME. I've been instructing with the BMW CCA both with the HPDE and AX program for well over a decade. Trust me when I say the skill sets DO transfer over.

The fact that you continue to discount a variety of accounts and logical rebuttals seems to suggest to me you're looking for validation that the BMW should be as fast, if not faster. I'm sorry to say that if that's what you're looking for, good luck. The Evo 10 MR I drove, on the same day that I drove the E92 M3, as instrumented on a 30 second long AX course, the Evo 10 MR was the faster of the two cars.

Now, if you want to argue that on Auto Club Speedway that the E9x M3 COULD conceivably be faster than the EVO due to the higher HP and the ginormous straight and banked oval favoring a car with HP advantage? Yeah, sure. The BMW can conceivably be faster "on track" due to the HP advantage. Just like there are AX courses designed to favor high HP cars too.

But that doesn't mean AX is fundamentally different than tracking. Not one bit. It just means there are some tracks designed to reward cars a certain way, just as there are AX courses designed to reward certain characteristics. But the fact that two bone stock cars driven under identical, ideal conditions, by a seasoned driver who "should" know what he (or she, you never know) is doing?

I dunno man. I personally have experienced all three chassis (335i, EVO 10, E9x M3) in bone stock environment, driven to 10/10th, and in most situations the EVO 10 is a lot closer in performance to an E9x M3 than it is to a 335i, and it's safe to say, sometimes even SURPASS the M3.

[natedog7700]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Look. If a car is faster on an AX course it will likely be faster on the track. The physics behind going fast in either is THE SAME. I've been instructing with the BMW CCA both with the HPDE and AX program for well over a decade. Trust me when I say the skill sets DO transfer over.

The fact that you continue to discount a variety of accounts and logical rebuttals seems to suggest to me you're looking for validation that the BMW should be as fast, if not faster. I'm sorry to say that if that's what you're looking for, good luck. The Evo 10 MR I drove, on the same day that I drove the E92 M3, as instrumented on a 30 second long AX course, the Evo 10 MR was the faster of the two cars.

Now, if you want to argue that on Auto Club Speedway that the E9x M3 COULD conceivably be faster than the EVO due to the higher HP and the ginormous straight and banked oval favoring a car with HP advantage? Yeah, sure. The BMW can conceivably be faster "on track" due to the HP advantage. Just like there are AX courses designed to favor high HP cars too.

But that doesn't mean AX is fundamentally different than tracking. Not one bit. It just means there are some tracks designed to reward cars a certain way, just as there are AX courses designed to reward certain characteristics. But the fact that two bone stock cars driven under identical, ideal conditions, by a seasoned driver who "should" know what he (or she, you never know) is doing?

I dunno man. I personally have experienced all three chassis (335i, EVO 10, E9x M3) in bone stock environment, driven to 10/10th, and in most situations the EVO 10 is a lot closer in performance to an E9x M3 than it is to a 335i, and it's safe to say, sometimes even SURPASS the M3.

1) Yes i agree, skill sets do transfer over and i never said they did not? We are talking about lap times and how they differ from Autocross.

2) Again, that was an Autocross track, doesn't surprise me the AWD Evo beat the M3, i never said otherwise?

3) Um, idk where you've been because when i autocross its all 60mph and under. I struggle to hook up in 3rd gear which leaves me to believe autocross is more for under powered go karts as opposed to "higher HP cars".

4) Ive driven two EVO 10's but never an M3 so i wouldn't know there, but yes they handle great i get it, but by how much? They put out similar numbers on paper... I think the 335 would hold its own IMO

[feuer]

Originally Posted by cb4

http://www.caranddriver.com/best-sedans

Car and driver classifies the 3 series as entry level Luxury

Who cares about C&D? That's marketing term loosely used in USA based on retail price. Luxury cars are separate segment where you will not find cloth seats, manual Windows, no sunroof, no ac and etc, all available on 3-series btw. Also, you don't see at least dozen of them on your commute to work and most definitely they are not being tuned by teenagers on allowance.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by natedog7700

1) Ive driven two EVO 10's but never an M3 so i wouldn't know there, but yes they handle great i get it, but by how much? They put out similar numbers on paper... I think the 335 would hold its own IMO

We all know you love your 335i but only place where you can take on a Evo and have the 335i hold its own is on I43 or I94 when is chilly out and no turns for miles. Not happening on track...

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by feuer

We all know you love your 335i but only place where you can take on a Evo and have the 335i hold its own is on I43 or I94 when is chilly out and no turns for miles. Not happening on track...

Exactly... And honestly, who cares if your car is faster or slower against whatever, there are no prizes to be won on track days.

[cb4]

Originally Posted by feuer

Who cares about C&D? That's marketing term loosely used in USA based on retail price. Luxury cars are separate segment where you will not find cloth seats, manual Windows, no sunroof, no ac and etc, all available on 3-series btw. Also, you don't see at least dozen of them on your commute to work and most definitely they are not being tuned by teenagers on allowance.

Ok let's go with your assessment.

[jhanso18]

FWIW I was at a road course 2 weeks ago, and had NO problem running down a stockish 2015 evoX. (drop springs and cobb e85 tune.) Also on a roll race from 60mph I beat him to 120mph by about 6-7 cars. I have cobb v301 tune and 91 octane.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by jhanso18

FWIW I was at a road course 2 weeks ago, and had NO problem running down a stockish 2015 evoX. (drop springs and cobb e85 tune.) Also on a roll race from 60mph I beat him to 120mph by about 6-7 cars. I have cobb v301 tune and 91 octane.

maybe the other driver is a total noob or going easy with his brand new car...

who the hell cares...

you guys needs to stop thinking you own the road just because you bought a 2nd hand BMW that costs less than a brand new Camry...

[jhanso18]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

maybe the other driver is a total noob or going easy with his brand new car...

who the hell cares...

you guys needs to stop thinking you own the road just because you bought a 2nd hand BMW that costs less than a brand new Camry...

The drive was just as experienced on track as I am, (lots of autoX, and a hand full of track sessions.) I never implied that I "owned the road." In fact, I prefaced my statement with FWIW, as in take with a grain of salt.

the driver is a very good friend of mine, and trust me, he was not going easy at all. It was a learning day for both of us, and truth be told, I would rather have his car at the track. I'd rather have mine the other 28 days of the month I'm not racing though...

basically I'm saying chill your jets man. I'm not knocking on evo's, just giving my insight.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by jhanso18

The drive was just as experienced on track as I am, (lots of autoX, and a hand full of track sessions.) I never implied that I "owned the road." In fact, I prefaced my statement with FWIW, as in take with a grain of salt.

the driver is a very good friend of mine, and trust me, he was not going easy at all. It was a learning day for both of us, and truth be told, I would rather have his car at the track. I'd rather have mine the other 28 days of the month I'm not racing though...

basically I'm saying chill your jets man. I'm not knocking on evo's, just giving my insight.

e85 tune on Evo yields about 350whp vs around 330whp from your Cobb V301 so I can not see you pulling 6 to 7 cars or pulling at all on lighter Evo unless like Cloud9blue said driver can not drive

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by feuer

e85 tune on Evo yields about 350whp vs around 330whp from your Cobb V301 so I can not see you pulling 6 to 7 cars or pulling at all on lighter Evo unless like Cloud9blue said driver can not drive

OP mentioned his friend is on the same skill level as him...... So I think both drivers can benefit from some proper driving lessons vs. online debate on what car is faster. Experience doesn't mean much if you are not concentrate on learning and improving. There are soccer moms out there with decades of "experience" behind the wheel, does it mean they can do a proper merge on the highway or parallel park? No...

225 tires is inadequate on this car and will be overheated no matter how you drive, highly recommend you switching to a 255 square setup.

[Riceball777]

i actually just sold my evo 8. Although i like my 335i much more than my evo due to the luxury and the much better power with basic bolt ons i can tell you that my stock suspension evo handles way way better than my 335i with the sport suspension. Its not even close when your talking about handling and track performance.

[jhanso18]

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