[Pseudo Nim]

+1 on the CLA45: I don't understand MB's strategy there, as it's EXTREMELY affordable (and apparently a good performer) - right this very moment, if I were in the market for a 4-door powerful sedan, I'd most likely buy the CLA45 over the 335 and probably even over the M3 - so I'd like to see what happens there.

On the other hand, it'll sell like hot cakes, so I suddenly don't want it anymore. How many "rare" cars can one own in a lifetime, right :P

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by Pseudo Nim

+1 on the CLA45: I don't understand MB's strategy there, as it's EXTREMELY affordable (and apparently a good performer) - right this very moment, if I were in the market for a 4-door powerful sedan, I'd most likely buy the CLA45 over the 335 and probably even over the M3 - so I'd like to see what happens there.

On the other hand, it'll sell like hot cakes, so I suddenly don't want it anymore. How many "rare" cars can one own in a lifetime, right :P

Your R is really rare (2 per dealership). If you did not track your car, you would have rarely seen another BLUE one, let alone 2 or 3.

Having said that, with regards to

M3/M4: C63 or it's next model will provide some pressure pricewise. RS4/5 won't because they are already priced higher than M3. Lots of folks are not liking the M3/4 1) droopy front end 2) turbo & lower redline and 3) Exhaust sound 4) 3300 lbs still on the heavy side (M3 don't need to be that BIG)

M2: I frankly don't think it will happen, since as Vanos mentions, it will have to outperform the M235, without outperforming the M3/4. And pricewise, it will still have to favorably compare to the CLA 45 AMG, which doesn't leave much room. 60k will be overpriced, while 55k not enough compared to the M235. Dilemma. Not to forget the M3 cannot start too much higher than $70k

January Detroit Auto show should be telling of the direction BMW chooses.

[Pseudo Nim]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Your R is really rare (2 per dealership). If you did not track your car, you would have rarely seen another BLUE one, let alone 2 or 3.

Having said that, with regards to

M3/M4: C63 or it's next model will provide some pressure pricewise. RS4/5 won't because they are already priced higher than M3. Lots of folks are not liking 1) the droopy front end 2) turboed M & lower redline and 3) Exhaust sound sucks 4) 3300 lbs still on the heavy side (M3 don'r need to be that BIG)

M2: I frankly don't think it will happen, since as Vanos mentions, it will have to outperform the M235, without outperforming the M3/4. And pricewise, it will still have to favorably compare to the CLA 45 AMG, which doesn't leave much room. 60k will be overpriced, while 55k not enough compared to the M235. Dilemma. Not to forget the M3 cannot start too much higher than $70k

January Detroit Auto show should be telling of the direction BMW chooses.

I dunno, I still see a LOT of blue ones Saw a grey one in Toronto just yesterday. I feel like white/grey are the rare colours, and red? I've seen only ONE red one, on LeaseBusters!

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by Pseudo Nim

I dunno, I still see a LOT of blue ones Saw a grey one in Toronto just yesterday. I feel like white/grey are the rare colours, and red? I've seen only ONE red one, on LeaseBusters!

Ok, I guess me trying to cheer you up won't work. The GOOD news it that your's is a lease and you will certainly have a second chance for another color in 18 months. I wish for you that you don't end up picking another color (say Red) which ends up being the most popular for the next generation Rs, that would surely suck bigtime bwahahaha!

Sorry!

Be aware that I may have dibs for the next R

I am looking for next car right?

[vanosracing]

As impressive as the CLA AMG is on paper, I don't like it.

I read an interesting article in an Automotive trade magazine about M, AMG and RS and clearly it is all about the bottom line and how they can add revenue. I think BMW has the best approach and finally got the point about weight reduction. Here are some snips from the article:

There is a battle between Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz that goes beyond unit sales and global expansion. The German automakers are constantly trying to out-engineer one another with their high-performance subbrands. The grand prize for horsepower supremacy, break-neck acceleration and leading-edge technology is a small but affluent group of enthusiast car buyers who will pay a premium for the super-powered cars, many of which are variants of the brands' regular premium cars and SUVs.

He said the dream for AMG is simple: "We want to be the most desirable performance brand in the world." The aim at AMG is to gain an even more prominent position within the Mercedes family. "We want to be the driving force in the performance segment. We want to be innovators. And that is our role in terms of the technical relationship with Mercedes," he added. At Mercedes, AMG takes the technological lead. It implements and tests new features and if they are successful they move into volume Mercedes models in two to five years.

AMG, which accounts for about 2 percent of Mercedes's global sales, aims to grow. During the subbrand's 45th anniversary celebration last year, the company laid out an ambitious strategy for the next five years: increase unit sales to 30,000 by 2017 from about 20,000 last year. To meet the goal AMG will expand to 30 models by its 50th anniversary from 22 last year. "These eight additional models did not have an AMG predecessor," Kaellenius said.

Nitschke said that M's main challenge is to reduce fuel consumption and CO2 emissions by up to 30 percent with every new-generation model launch. "We also want to reduce weight and bring to the market one to three special innovations in every new car we launch," he said.

In most cases the Quattro name is not used as Audi choses to use the RS badge on its high-performance variants. "RS arguably is not really a subbrand in the same way as M or AMG," IHS's Urquhart said, adding that the confusing naming practice has not hurt Audi because the Quattro, M and AMG divisions "are all phenomenal assets to their respective companies."

Unlike its rivals, RS models have a limited presence outside of Europe as Audi only started selling the variants in the U.S. and Chinese markets within the last two years. "We are well known and pretty famous in Germany and in the rest of Europe, so our biggest challenge is overseas expansion, with a big growth potential in the U.S. and in China, as well as in the Middle East and Russia," Quattro Managing Director Franciscus

Super diesels

The majority of AMG, M and RS models sold worldwide are powered by gasoline engines, but BMW also has high-performance diesels while Mercedes sells a battery-powered AMG supercar that provides the same power as a 751-hp engine. BMW offers the M 550d sedan and wagon as well as the X5 and X6 SUVs with a 381-hp 3.0-liter six-cylinder tri-turbo diesel. The engine propels the X5 and X6 from 0-100kph a little more than 5 seconds.

"For us, an eight- or 12-cylinder diesel was too heavy, but this new inline six with three turbos gave us the possibility to have a very lightweight diesel," M boss Nitschke said. BMW was not sure whether a diesel would have fit M's mission. "In the end, we decided not to offer them as part of our core M models, but use the M Performance label, which is a new sub-category that responds to customers who ask for high-performance diesels and 4WD models," Nitschke said.

Said IHS's Urquhart: "BMW had been smart in labeling its diesel and some gasoline models as M Performance. This creates a niche below the M line for a high-performance range-topping version of the mainstream model range, which is similar to Audi's S models which are below RS."

AMG offered diesels in the past, but discontinued them. Kaellenius does not see them fitting the subbrand's mission today because they would add so much weight in the front end, which would compromise driving dynamics. "We are not dogmatic about a technology, but we are about the driving experience," Kaellenius said.

Audi said Quattro does not need diesels because models in BMW's M Performance line are similar to its S models, which are built by Audi, not Quattro.

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by vanosracing

As impressive as the CLA AMG is on paper, I don't like it.

I read an interesting article in an Automotive trade magazine about M, AMG and RS and clearly it is all about the bottom line and how they can add revenue. I think BMW has the best approach and finally got the point about weight reduction. Here are some snips from the article:

While I won't necessarily buy the CLA AMG, I really like the fact that it is bold, efficient and competitively priced. Faster on track and much cheaper than the previous 1M, nice seats, AWD, but it is fugly. Yes, statement of leading edge tech (highest hp/litre) is marketing, but at the same time it eats at competitor's psyche, he he. One more thing for them to worry about. I am happy because with it, the other offerings (BMW, Audi, Cadillac etc) would give consumers more for their money.

Yes, they all want to sell more, but to do that they need to become more desirable to more people and this includes targeting the competitor's niche and this also means one needs to challenge directly the others strength.

It is interesting that while Audis have become quite efficient, some of their offerings e.g. RS3 while quick on track does not drive well when pushed to the limit. I still clearly remember I wanted an RS4 so badly was selling for 100k. Once the new M3 or 335 (can't remember which) came out and destroyed it, performance wise and price wise it went the way of the dodo. Still, that RS4 was a great vehicle, hi-tech twin turbo V8 with 400 hp, variable turbo vanes etc. etc.

Mercedes then came along with a novel approach with the C63 AMG. Even if the car could not match the M3 in track driving precision and even lap times, it provided quite the thrill and new concept of cheaper power! (I know 65k is not cheap, but it was unthinkable to get 450hp at that price at the time from the Germans. They were known to make you pay for each additional hp, dearly I mean)

Having said all this, as you say, those cars have all gotten larger, fatter and heavier and more remote to what enthusiasts yearn for. Lightness before power, more luxury but not at the expense of driver engagement (filtering) etc etc.

Yes, BMW has seen the light about needing to shed weight, not that they have significantly done so, since the next M3 will still be in the neighbourhood of 3300 lbs (e46 territory). I would say they are the first out of Audi-Merc-BMW, but the concept started much earlier e.g. Porsche Cayman which kept it below 3000 lbs, and more recently the 2013 Toyobaru with their much much fun but underpowered 2700 lbs twin FRS/BRZ Even VW has lightened the Golf 7 by 200 lbs from the prior version Golf 6, and they were not 3600 lbs to begin with, so BMW's weight shedding is not ground breaking, they just should not have gotten that porky to begin with.

While it hasn't meant horrible products to date, on the contrary we've had great products, with remarkable improvements from the cars of 1980s, yes farther removed from what enthusiasts want, but the next few years promise to be quite exciting. Would you agree?

[vanosracing]

Ken, you may need to wait until 2016 before the M2 makes it to our shores. In the meantime there is still a lot of track left for your 335i...

In the meantime, this is the best way to imagine it via renderings...

I suspect 350HP (needs to be at least 75HP less than the M4).

[Pseudo Nim]

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY do they do that TERRIBLE front and rear bumper wrinkles? This damn car needs plastic surgery and botox.

[M3 Montreal]

Originally Posted by vanosracing

This whole real M not pretend as to stop. In the old days BMW had the iS models whish were excellent and a stepping stone to the M cars. The M135i, M235i, etc... are all very good cars and for most all they will ever need.

It will be interesting to see what BMW does with the M2 and how they price it because it could really hurt their M3 and M4. You will be able to get a M235i sub $50K, I don't think you will get a M2 under $60K.

Are modern day M's as meaningful as the glory day M's or are they now more of a "M"arketing tool? I vouch for the latter, I think BMW needs a new hardcore M line along the lines of CSL territory.

TRUST me... There is STILL a huge difference between an M and a 335.

Hopefully the next M will be the same also and not just a modified 335. It's too bad they didn't make a 3.5 litre new M3/4. I guess cost savings won out over making an exclusive engine.

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by vanosracing

Ken, you may need to wait until 2016 before the M2 makes it to our shores. In the meantime there is still a lot of track left for your 335i...

In the meantime, this is the best way to imagine it via renderings...

I suspect 350HP (needs to be at least 75HP less than the M4).

Correct, I will still be tracking the 335 for a while. The next car will be the last track oriented car for me and hopefully last me 10 years. I don't plan to track into my retirement

There are more things to do, places to see etc.

As for the M2 power, that should be enough, although I suspect m3/M4 are pressured by competitors to increase power a little....

So January Detroit Auto (official M3/M4 unveiling) show will be quite telling.

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by M3 Montreal

TRUST me... There is STILL a huge difference between an M and a 335.

Hopefully the next M will be the same also and not just a modified 335. It's too bad they didn't make a 3.5 litre new M3/4. I guess cost savings won out over making an exclusive engine.

The M3/M4 turbo I6 is built stronger than the N54/N55. Its closed deck block design and internals can handle more power in theory.

Note that N54 has been tuned to close to 500 whp with the stock turbos, and over 700 hp for single big turbo option, without messing with internals. The N55 (twin scroll) engine is still today not easy to chip and has not been able to gain significant additional hp.

Note that the M235 engine is an N55 variant

It doesn't get better with the M3/M4 upcoming engine. The hurdle is that it will be harder to trick the ECU, plus the water to air intercooler design won't be easy to upgrade.

I hear Audis/VW too are being built much harder to be tuned/chipped if you will. That will be the theme as more car companies move to turbos, manufacturers will make life hell for those wanting to tune their car.......

Personally, I am not looking to have to tune the M. It is nice to have this option, but it's not a deal breaker for me.

[kenneth]

Vanos,

Here is anther option

http://www.corvetteforum.com/article...l-c7-widebody/

[vanosracing]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Vanos,

Here is anther option

http://www.corvetteforum.com/article...l-c7-widebody/

Ken, I'm assuming you are referring to a standard C7 and not a SEMA widebody version (not crazy about SEMA cars). Nevertheless, my wife would never let me get a Vette (being Italian there are too many stereotypes with Trans Am's and Vettes...).

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by vanosracing

Ken, I'm assuming you are referring to a standard C7 and not a SEMA widebody version (not crazy about SEMA cars). Nevertheless, my wife would never let me get a Vette (being Italian there are too many stereotypes with Trans Am's and Vettes...).

Of course! Anything I get will remain virtually stock

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Of course! Anything I get will remain virtually stock

Originally Posted by vanosracing

Ken, I'm assuming you are referring to a standard C7 and not a SEMA widebody version (not crazy about SEMA cars). Nevertheless, my wife would never let me get a Vette (being Italian there are too many stereotypes with Trans Am's and Vettes...).

I have a fix for your dillemma with your wife! Alfa

http://ca.images.search.yahoo.com/yh...mp=yhs-per_001

[jgalaxy]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Vanos,

Here is anther option

http://www.corvetteforum.com/article...l-c7-widebody/

Wow. Robin blue. What were they smoking ...

To the Bat Mobile Robin!

[vanosracing]

Originally Posted by kenneth

I have a fix for your dillemma with your wife! Alfa

http://ca.images.search.yahoo.com/yh...mp=yhs-per_001

That is a vey sexy car...leave it to the Ialians for flair.

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by vanosracing

That is a vey sexy car...leave it to the Ialians for flair.

Cheaper than the next M2 and M4 too

I tell you, I am having so much fun looking for the next one

[jgalaxy]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Cheaper than the next M2 and M4 too

I tell you, I am having so much fun looking for the next one

I'm thinking the 4C will be a pretty pricey vehicle. The M4 may be a cheaper solution yet.

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Cheaper than the next M2 and M4 too


I tell you, I am having so much fun looking for the next one

Originally Posted by jgalaxy

I'm thinking the 4C will be a pretty pricey vehicle. The M4 may be a cheaper solution yet.

Starting price is $54k. Even with racing package which is 5k it may still be cheaper than M2.

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by vanosracing

Ken, I'm assuming you are referring to a standard C7 and not a SEMA widebody version (not crazy about SEMA cars). Nevertheless, my wife would never let me get a Vette (being Italian there are too many stereotypes with Trans Am's and Vettes...).

Italian guy driving a refurbished electric blue Trans Am today

[Pseudo Nim]

taking pictures while driving. shame on you.