[cn555ic]

Digging for more info! Be careful!

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

If you're dropping 2-4 degrees off the knock threshold it's not much different than dropping 4-6 degrees. It knocked, the ECU heard it, the ECU pulled back timing. This whole argument on PROcede timing control is completely disingenuous and intellectually dishonest because it ignores the simple fact that it's also riding the knock threshold system.

And this thread has nothing at all to do with knock threshold system anyway because as evidenced by your own and JPs logs the V4 runs 0% CPS on meth. No different than the JB3.

Mike

You still don't get it. So say an engine does peak at 25, you drop 6-8 by knocking untill the engine finally learns it, and tune B drops 10-12, that to me is a difference. To you it appears that it is not.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

If you're dropping 2-4 degrees off the knock threshold it's not much different than dropping 4-6 degrees. It knocked, the ECU heard it, the ECU pulled back timing. This whole argument on PROcede timing control is completely disingenuous and intellectually dishonest because it ignores the simple fact that it's also riding the knock threshold system.

And this thread has nothing at all to do with knock threshold system anyway because as evidenced by your own and JPs logs the V4 runs 0% CPS on meth. No different than the JB3.

Mike

Dont put me in the equation... EVER.

I didnt mention any tune. Didnt mention procede or Jb3.

I just explained how ignition and ignition maps work, somethin which you still dont get.

Pulling 2 degrees and pulling 6 degrees is a big difference FWIW.

How many cars have you tuned in the past?

[Calvin@Vishnu]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

If you're dropping 2-4 degrees off the knock threshold it's not much different than dropping 4-6 degrees. It knocked, the ECU heard it, the ECU pulled back timing. This whole argument on PROcede timing control is completely disingenuous and intellectually dishonest because it ignores the simple fact that it's also riding the knock threshold system.

And this thread has nothing at all to do with knock threshold system anyway because as evidenced by your own and JPs logs the V4 runs 0% CPS on meth. No different than the JB3.

Mike

Ok... now i'm getting pissed. Because you either have no idea how engines work or you are just lying. There is a HUGE difference between seeing an average KR of say 2 degrees and an average of 5-6 degrees. If your engine could talk, it would agree with you. It's also worth noting that the minimum amount of DME induced knock correction/retard is 3 degrees. So if you see a retard of 3 degrees, this does NOT mean that the tune was 3 degrees too advance. It means that it was 0-3 degrees overly advanced.

But if you see a knock retard amount of 6 degrees, what you have are two successive knock retard events on top of each other. This tells you that the first 3 degree chunk the DME yanked out wasn't enough to stop the knock. And it follows up by retarding ANOTHER 3 degrees. This tells you that your tune (according to your DME) was 3-6 degrees excessive advance.

And Terry, I know know if you every mapped a car with a standalone before (I'm guessing you haven't based upon your complete lack of understanding) but a there is a huge difference between the two scenarios. Let me know if you don't understand this and I'll cite some good engine tuning technical articles that you may want to read before selling tune to people who trust that you are an expert on this subject.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

Dont put me in the equation... EVER.

I didnt mention any tune. Didnt mention procede or Jb3.

I just explained how ignition and ignition maps work, somethin which you still dont get.

Pulling 2 degrees and pulling 6 degrees is a big difference FWIW.

How many cars have you tuned in the past?

What do you mean don't pull you in the discussion? You're preaching pulling back timing and I'm saying on meth you're not doing that. You are running 0% CPS from the logs you've posted.

Mike

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

What do you mean don't pull you in the discussion? You're preaching pulling back timing and I'm saying on meth you're not doing that. You are running 0% CPS from the logs you've posted.

Mike

Proof of jpslick posting ignition logs? This is sort of funny.
Vishnu camp is saying it is not showing actual timing retard, you chose to ignore it and repeat yourself over and over and over again.

PS: I will admit what vishnu is claiming is sort of hard to believe in regards to them not showing actual timing retard.

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Proof of jpslick posting ignition logs? This is sort of funny.
Vishnu camp is saying it is not showing actual timing retard, you chose to ignore it and repeat yourself over and over and over again.

PS: I will admit what vishnu is claiming is sort of hard to believe in regards to them not showing actual timing retard.

Ignoring is trying to dig for some info on how it done!

[M4TW]

I don't think u guys should be knocking retards so much. Some might find it offensive

D'oh!

[klipseracer]

Originally Posted by Sparkplug

I don't think u guys should be knocking retards so much. Some might find it offensive

D'oh!

LOL! In this case the retards are causing knock.

[Terrance28]

Originally Posted by scottp999

Who told you that? In this failure, the person was running the most aggressive board (12 ohm), when the standard is 24 ohm and there is an 18 ohm that many use for meth and/or race gas. This person was pushing the boost limits at the same time they were minimizing the fail safes (meth, boost taper, no race gas at high levels of boost >18PSI).

The failure happened on one of the most agressive setups anyone could run for stock turbos.

If you are running a 24 or 18 ohm board, with 93 octane plus a decent meth ratio, limiting boost to between 16 and 17, while running a decent boost taper at high rpms, and running a working meth failsafe, you should be good to go.

I wont get into the timing control debate, but the upside to control is positive in my eyes.

+1

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

What do you mean don't pull you in the discussion? You're preaching pulling back timing and I'm saying on meth you're not doing that. You are running 0% CPS from the logs you've posted.

Mike

All I'm saying is you have no idea how to tune a car, and dont involve me in taking sides of tunes, when I've named no tune in which I prefer.

Truth of the matter is I've already mentioned which tune I prefer, and its not any tune I've been running.

So dont put me on a bandwagon of Procede, or Jb3....

I'm part of basic fundemantals of tuning, and know how and explaining to people how tuning works.

Thanks for the great advice of pulling 6 degrees is like pulling 2 degrees, when that CAN be the difference between blowing an engine or not, EASILY.

Don't worry about my car, I dont worry about yours.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Terrance28

+1

-1, this 24 18 12 ohm crap is just that, crap. How was I able to sustain 18 plus psi on 18ohm and others need a 12 do it? The boost control of the jb3 infact is crap to begin with.

[tres]

jpslick I dont know much about engines but from reading your posts are you saying the ignition problem can be solved with software. I have some friends with turbo cars (jdm) and they always upgrade pistons rods intercooler ecu etc. and lower the compression in their engines. Do the same rules apply to the n54 or is it a different ball game.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

All I'm saying is you have no idea how to tune a car, and dont involve me in taking sides of tunes, when I've named no tune in which I prefer.

Truth of the matter is I've already mentioned which tune I prefer, and its not any tune I've been running.

So dont put me on a bandwagon of Procede, or Jb3....

I'm part of basic fundemantals of tuning, and know how and explaining to people how tuning works.

Thanks for the great advice of pulling 6 degrees is like pulling 2 degrees, when that CAN be the difference between blowing an engine or not, EASILY.

Don't worry about my car, I dont worry about yours.

No one said pulling 2 degrees is like pulling 6 degrees. I said the same knock threshold detection mechanism used to pull the 2 degrees is used to pull the 6 degrees. Looking at timing curves it's clear everyone is riding the same system so it's hypocritical for some to jump on their high horse and preach here and then when their customers post logs say everything is fine. Not to mention the fact that the whole concept of autotuning boost based on knock sensor feedback is inherently relying on the knock sensors.

This is all off topic anyway as we're talking about a failure at 18.5psi where meth was relied on to provide octane. If you're boosting that high relying on the meth to keep it together you better make sure the safety systems are all setup and fully functional and the minimum flow window sufficient to cover your boost curve at full advance.

Mike

[Calvin@Vishnu]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

No one said pulling 2 degrees is like pulling 6 degrees. I said the same knock threshold detection mechanism used to pull the 2 degrees is used to pull the 6 degrees. Looking at timing curves it's clear everyone is riding the same system so it's hypocritical for some to jump on their high horse and preach here and then when their customers post logs say everything is fine. Not to mention the fact that the whole concept of autotuning boost based on knock sensor feedback is inherently relying on the knock sensors.

This is all off topic anyway as we're talking about a failure at 18.5psi where meth was relied on to provide octane. If you're boosting that high relying on the meth to keep it together you better make sure the safety systems are all setup and fully functional and the minimum flow window sufficient to cover your boost curve at full advance.

Mike

So now it appears that Sevak was running a meth failsafe after all. At least according to Coolingmist Dave. So no meth failure+datalogs that "look good" (accordingly to Terry)= sudden blown motor because the tune wasn't smart or able to retard timing either proactively or reactively.

[Jonny550]

With each page i read the argument gets more and more heated. lol

[Belarus]

Originally Posted by Jon335iFL

With each page i read the argument gets more and more heated. lol

I call it a healthy debate

[Jonny550]

Originally Posted by Belarus

I call it a healthy debate

Agreed. Shiv,Mike,Terry......Go on.

[Clap135]

Dave from coolingmist is saying the failsafe was on
Terry from BMS is saying the failsafe was off.

To me it sounds like they are both trying to cover their ass lol. Its been a while, at this point im going to have a hard time believing what sevak even says...if anything at all. Pms/emails are flowing...

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Calvin@Vishnu

Maxboost popped a headgasket when one of this friends filled up with pump gas and ran a no-timing-retard race gas only map. And VK also swapped back and forth between the procede your jb3. Funny to say that the Procede caused the failure. You're arguments typically degrade when you're this far out of your element. So it's probably best to just agree with the rest of the tuning community (and every engine calibrator in the world) that mapped timing retard is necessary when running higher-than-stock boost pressures on pump gas.

As for hidden timing corrections, go ahead and scope it and see for yourself. For months, we've been amused that you (Terry) haven't noticed this during your reverse engineering sessions.

LOL that wasn't what MaxBoost had to say about it, and with VK this was prior to the JB3 being out. The failure happened with your system on during WOT. The real danger here is the methanol causing the ECU to ramp up to max advance which both tunes allow. Without a proper failsafe in place it's easy to get major knock. It's also entirely possible there was just not enough meth being injected to to support the boost levels. Monitoring timing advance would have caught that but it was not done and the system to do that automatically is not yet in place on the JB3 side.

Mike

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Dave from coolingmist is saying the failsafe was on
Terry from BMS is saying the failsafe was off.

To me it sounds like they are both trying to cover their ass lol. Its been a while, at this point im going to have a hard time believing what sevak even says...if anything at all. Pms/emails are flowing...

this is all GREAT info for the n54 tuning community, also fantastic reading for the rest of us.

Its starting to show who really knows what the hell they are talking about too. The holes in the arguments are gaping in some instances it seems.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

LOL that wasn't what MaxBoost had to say about it, and with VK this was prior to the JB3 being out. The failure happened with your system on during WOT. The real danger here is the methanol causing the ECU to ramp up to max advance which both tunes allow. Without a proper failsafe in place it's easy to get major knock. It's also entirely possible there was just not enough meth being injected to to support the boost levels. Monitoring timing advance would have caught that but it was not done and the system to do that automatically is not yet in place on the JB3 side.

Mike

is it me or did MaxBoost's problems happen back in the v1 or v2 days? How is that what we are dealing with now?