[Litos]

Originally Posted by Clap135

I believe you are wrong, the only reason we dont see more blown n54s is because the engine is basically bulletproof for anyone on stock turbos....

Can't think of many cars on the market that can take 150whp on top of stock output while spinning turbos out of the their maps without throwing rods or melting pistons.

just off the top of my head: STi, EVO and SRT4

i've owned an 05 STi and (2) SRT4's, and yes, those 2.4's and 2.5's can handle over 150whp and live a VERY LONG TIME.

they're not as sensitive as these BMW's, that's for sure.

p.s.
still reading this thread, just wanted to point that out to you

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

There is no way to post proof that it is doing anything bad or good.

What do you mean, there sure is. YOu are saying there is no proof that knock events on this engine do harm. The world is saying you are wrong, and you continue to ruin this thread. Start your own thead.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Clap135

So why didnt this work for all the motors that blew using various tunes? Where was the boost cut/limp mode?

The ones I saw had ignition glow codes stored but the system presumably could not react fast enough to prevent damage. The OEM logic has its pitfalls so one has to know how to tune for/around them. For example one big problem with the OEM logic is when used with methanol at high boost levels. If meth flow stops full boost @ 18psi (or takes longer to spool up) you're going to get serious knock faster than the DME can limp. And good bye piston. As you scale up power to 17, 18, 19, 20psi, the pressures go up dramatically and margin of error drops.

I guess this should have been clarified from the start. Are we talking about the N54 owner running 13-14psi here or are we talking about guys running 18+psi, nitrous, meth, big turbos, etc? Because they are very different animals.

Mike

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Have you driven a JB4? Here is what another PROcede user had to say about it. So don't be so quick to lump your JB3 complaints in with the JB4. It's an entirely new system just at the very beginning of development and it's already 100x better than the JB3.

This is what bothers me most.

According to you there are 5000 JB3s out there; and when those were coming out you were saying they were 100x better than the previous iteration. In a year, you're going to be saying that the JB4 (which you're praising now) is a hack job compared to the JB5. Of course the JB4 is better; but you've sold the notion that the JB3 is a perfectly legitimate and equal product.

I can't wait til the JB5 comes out and you say "Woh, the way the JB4 works is horrible compared to this..."

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Litos

just off the top of my head: STi, EVO and SRT4

i've owned an 05 STi and (2) SRT4's, and yes, those 2.4's and 2.5's can handle over 150whp and live a VERY LONG TIME.

they're not as sensitive as these BMW's, that's for sure.

p.s.
still reading this thread, just wanted to point that out to you

And did you tune your STI and your SRT-4's to knock on a daily basis? Better yet, was it tuned with control of all functions of the engine? I.e Fuel boost and spark?

I know for DAMN sure that the STi engines cannot handle knock, AT ALL.

I know 2 guys that blew their engines from mickey mouse tuners.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Litos

just off the top of my head: STi, EVO and SRT4

i've owned an 05 STi and (2) SRT4's, and yes, those 2.4's and 2.5's can handle over 150whp and live a VERY LONG TIME.

they're not as sensitive as these BMW's, that's for sure.

p.s.
still reading this thread, just wanted to point that out to you

srt4, yes
stis 350 to the wheels you are on limited time
Evos- 400 and you are on limited time.

Plus none of this is ont he stock turbo spitting fire into the engine.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The ones I saw had ignition glow codes stored but the system presumably could not react fast enough to prevent damage. The OEM logic has its pitfalls so one has to know how to tune for/around them. For example one big problem with the OEM logic is when used with methanol at high boost levels. If meth flow stops full boost @ 18psi (or takes longer to spool up) you're going to get serious knock faster than the DME can limp. And good bye piston. As you scale up power to 17, 18, 19, 20psi, the pressures go up dramatically and margin of error drops.

I guess this should have been clarified from the start. Are we talking about the N54 owner running 13-14psi here or are we talking about guys running 18+psi, nitrous, meth, big turbos, etc? Because they are very different animals.

Mike

We are talking about a timing curve that is set for load output, in that case, we are talking about anythign who runs higher then stock boost.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by Litos

just off the top of my head: STi, EVO and SRT4

i've owned an 05 STi and (2) SRT4's, and yes, those 2.4's and 2.5's can handle over 150whp and live a VERY LONG TIME.

they're not as sensitive as these BMW's, that's for sure.

p.s.
still reading this thread, just wanted to point that out to you

What he means is try doing that with this form (or lack) of ignition control.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

What do you mean, there sure is. YOu are saying there is no proof that knock events on this engine do no harm. The world is saying you are wrong, and you continue to ruin this thread. Start your own thead.

I am saying without you being able to show me the amount of knock, you can not determine the damage being caused.

Mods could you please PM, I am now constantly being personally and mentally harassed on AOL Instant messenger by laloosh/Clap.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

This is what bothers me most.

According to you there are 5000 JB3s out there; and when those were coming out you were saying they were 100x better than the previous iteration. In a year, you're going to be saying that the JB4 (which you're praising now) is a hack job compared to the JB5. Of course the JB4 is better; but you've sold the notion that the JB3 is a perfectly legitimate and equal product.

I can't wait til the JB5 comes out and you say "Woh, the way the JB4 works is horrible compared to this..."

You don't like that the JB4 is better than the JB3? is the V5 better than the V4 was? Technology is always moving forward. Let me ask you this. If the JB4PnP wasn't $479 fully unlocked, how much do you think the single map procede would cost?

Mike

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

You don't like that the JB4 is better than the JB3? is the V5 better than the V4 was? Technology is always moving forward. Let me ask you this. If the JB4PnP wasn't $479 fully unlocked, how much do you think the single map procede would cost?

Mike

Who cares? We are talking about proper timing set points.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

I am saying without you being able to show me the amount of knock, you can not determine the damage being caused.

Mods could you please PM, I am now constantly being personally and mentally harassed on AOL Instant messenger by laloosh/Clap.

knock does damage, do you agree. Simple yes or no answer.
harassed on aol? wtf you talking about, I havnt talked to you since you copy pasted my entire convo with you last night. You should post this conversation, so it can be deleted by mods again.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

knock does damage, do you agree. Simple yes or no answer.

At a certain threshold, I believe "knock" can do damage.

I do not believe "knock frequency's" which is what the Knock sensors use to lower timing can cause damage.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

You don't like that the JB4 is better than the JB3? is the V5 better than the V4 was? Technology is always moving forward. Let me ask you this. If the JB4PnP wasn't $479 fully unlocked, how much do you think the single map procede would cost?

Mike

I'm not talking about the evolution of technology. I'm talking about proper tuning vs. improper. The proper tunes (Not sure on procede's history, but at least V3- 3 years ago) have all done something to offset ignition set points. Yours, on the other hand has gone on all this time without it.

The other tunes have had the proper technology from the getgo...your's hasn't and still doesn't.

I don't give a shit how much prices are....the market will stabilize it, and that's a laughable argument to begin with.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

I'm not talking about the evolution of technology. I'm talking about proper tuning vs. improper. The proper tunes (Not sure on procede's history, but at least V3- 3 years ago) have all done something to offset ignition set points. Yours, on the other hand has gone on all this time without it.

The other tunes have had the proper technology from the getgo...your's hasn't and still doesn't.

I don't give a shit how much prices are....the market will stabilize it, and that's a laughable argument to begin with.

Thats very opinionated.

What you are saying is that the OEM technology is wrong. Correct?

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

now i am completely baffled... where is there thread headed?

c'mon people -- can someone list the variable that will cause an engine to "knock" -- we all know its not solely a timing issue (granted its a big part of the equation)

i'll try to start it off

1. low octane fuel
2. incorrect spark advance
3.

could i get some help here??

3. High cylinder pressure
4. High intake temperatures
5. High backpressure

Theres a ton of variables.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

At a certain threshold, I believe "knock" can do damage.

I do not believe "knock frequency's" which is what the Knock sensors use to lower timing can cause damage.

Knock sensors use frequencies, and have ranges built into them to detect knock. A knock creates a frequency. They go hand in hand. If you have frequencies creating reverberation, you have knock.

So if its activating the sensor, then there is knock.

Knock overtime, or just once, can damage an engine.

Try Google


Here is your 3rd party proof...

Unfortunately, the knock sensor can handle only mild engine knocks.

http://www.engineblox.com/?p=65

You can leave us now knowing how Knock works and there is your proof.

It can only handle MILD engine knocks.

So someone pushing more boost then stock, isnt "mild" anymore.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Thats very opinionated.

What you are saying is that the OEM technology is wrong. Correct?

C'mon..you're smarter than that.


If BMW gave us a 15psi map where they changed the timing curve, that would be perfectly ok...

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

At a certain threshold, I believe "knock" can do damage.

I do not believe "knock frequency's" which is what the Knock sensors use to lower timing can cause damage.

Knock frequency is simply a frequency the knock sensor picks up. This frequency only occurs when knock occures.

If i hit you in the head with a metal bat, it will give off a sound right?
Now If i swing a bat at your head and you hear the same sound, is it safe to assume the bat hit you in the head?

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

Knock sensors use frequencies, and have ranges built into them to detect knock.

So if its activating the sensor, then there is knock.

Knock overtime, or just once, can damage an engine.

Try Google

But nobody is able to show data that shows these said "Ranges".

Originally Posted by Clap135

Knock frequency is simply a frequency the knock sensor picks up. This frequency only occurs when knock occures.

If i hit you in the head with a metal bat, it will give off a sound right?
Now If i swing a bat at your head and you hear the same sound, is it safe to assume the bat hit you in the head?

Great example laloosh,

If you barley tap me on the head, causing no damage, and it makes a slight sound, the OEM sensor adjust and lowers timing so you don't hit my head again.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

But nobody is able to show data that shows these said "Ranges".

Originally Posted by JPSlick

Knock sensors use frequencies, and have ranges built into them to detect knock. A knock creates a frequency. They go hand in hand. If you have frequencies creating reverberation, you have knock.

So if its activating the sensor, then there is knock.

Knock overtime, or just once, can damage an engine.

Try Google


Here is your 3rd party proof...



http://www.engineblox.com/?p=65

You can leave us now knowing how Knock works and there is your proof.

It can only handle MILD engine knocks.

So someone pushing more boost then stock, isnt "mild" anymore.

Here is my edit with proof, buh bye.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

But nobody is able to show data that shows these said "Ranges".

There is no ranges, if the knock sensor lower timing, it is because it sensed knock. Its just like me hitting you in the head with a metal bat.

I can nail you once and kill you, or i can tap you 1000 times and kill you, either way the bat is hitting your head, just like either way the car is knocking because it set up to use a timing curve for a stock car.

If you perfer a bat hitting your head lightly everytime you floor the car then more power to you. Personally I rather not get hit with a bat in the first place, which is what happens when you set a lower timing curve.