[feuer]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

- Don't see how your picture of the your car on PSS can discredit Ginger_Extract and my FIRST HAND observation.

- I can bet AD08R or R888 won't distort as much as R-S3 and the PSS in your photo.

- You will see this for yourself once you can drive at 8 to 9/10th pace consistently with these tires and how fast your outer shoulder will wear if you stay with your -2.5 camber and relatively soft front spring rate from the BMW PS springs.

See the photo above from Kgolf31 on re-71s.
Looks similar to my photo with PSS and yours with RS-3.
Don' want to argue but I can't tell you the same, you will see for yourself how that since you up the size your tires will distort less and have less shoulder wear.
I post the photo to support my claim why tires distort. Not discredit yours.
Has to do with sidewall stiffnes of course but even the stiffes tire will look like that if is not buldged on the rim to begin with.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by feuer

See the photo above from Kgolf31 on re-71s.
Looks similar to my photo with PSS and yours with RS-3.
Don' want to argue but I can't tell you the same, you will see for yourself how that since you up the size your tires will distort less and have less shoulder wear.
I post the photo to support my claim why tires distort. Not discredit yours.
Has to do with sidewall stiffnes of course but even the stiffes tire will look like that if is not buldged on the rim to begin with.

Actually a wider tire on the same rim will distort more. Why? Because now you have less tension on the sidewall.

So you actually got it the other way around. Actually a narrower/"more stretched" tire will distort less... Lol, a hellaflush setup won't distort at all I bet.

Macpherson front struts require a bit of negative camber to work right, especially on a nose heavy 3500lb car like ours. The only reason why yours don't wear that much on the shoulder is because you are taking it easy and overinflating the tires, which will actually overheat the tires more once you pick up some consistent speed.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Actually a wider tire on the same rim will distort more. Why? Because now you have less tension on the sidewall.

So you actually got it the other way around. Actually a narrower/"more stretched" tire will distort less... Lol, a hellaflush setup won't distort at all I bet.

Macpherson front struts require a bit of negative camber to work right, especially on a nose heavy 3500lb car like ours. The only reason why yours don't wear that much on the shoulder is because you are taking it easy and overinflating the tires, which will actually overheat the tires more once you pick up some consistent speed.

Alright, get then -4 camber on the front and install narrower tires and see what happens to the tire shoulders when you get it on the track.

Not only the tire shoulder but you will potentially scrub the lip of the wheel as well.

There is a reason why all soft and R compounds run wider and not narrower than regular tires.

Softer the side wall wider the tire needs to be to support the weight of the vehicle.

Regarding pressure, I run either 33 to 35 psi on all corners. Similar to yours?

Considering that I don't have LSD, DA coilover suspension, probably down 100 hp and taking it easy my speed is actually good compared not only to yours but also other similar cars with amateur drivers.

I'm aggressive on the gas pedal and the brakes but not on the steering. I don't like over driving and stressing the vehicle with the steering in the particular.

Professional deformation, I guess, after all the miles covered, and previous hill climb and track experience in FWD prone to understeer.

Besides, what is the point of pushing it beyond not only what the tires but the rest of the vehicle and my budget can take?

Why are we even discussing this? Thread is about a track novice. Other than the PSS he already has for the money RS-3 is appropriate.

Why would he go with absolutely the best and pricey tires on a stock 335i and negligible time behind the wheel on a track.

I struggle to see the the point of the arguments here.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by feuer

Alright, get then -4 camber on the front and install narrower tires and see what happens to the tire shoulders when you get it on the track.

Not only the tire shoulder but you will potentially scrub the lip of the wheel as well.

There is a reason why all soft and R compounds run wider and not narrower than regular tires.

Softer the side wall wider the tire needs to be to support the weight of the vehicle.

Regarding pressure, I run either 33 to 35 psi on all corners. Similar to yours?

Considering that I don't have LSD, DA coilover suspension, probably down 100 hp and taking it easy my speed is actually good compared not only to yours but also other similar cars with amateur drivers.

I'm aggressive on the gas pedal and the brakes but not on the steering. I don't like over driving and stressing the vehicle with the steering in the particular.

Professional deformation, I guess, after all the miles covered, and previous hill climb and track experience in FWD prone to understeer.

Besides, what is the point of pushing it beyond not only what the tires but the rest of the vehicle and my budget can take?

Why are we even discussing this? Thread is about a track novice. Other than the PSS he already has for the money RS-3 is appropriate.

Why would he go with absolutely the best and pricey tires on a stock 335i and negligible time behind the wheel on a track.

I struggle to see the the point of the arguments here.

We are arguing because you are claiming the hands on facts that me and the other poster presenting here are wrong, while you have no factual information to back up what you are claiming.

If OP is running stock like camber, there is very little point of running a sticky compound since you will be wearing out the front shoulder prematurely on these cars. As a matter, significant negative front camber is required on any front engined macpherson strut cars.

Racing slicks have very different construction than the street tires we are taking about here. You argument doesn't make much sense at all.

Fact is, You have seen how I drive and the lap times I put down. It is not all about the obvious hp advantage on my car, turn-in techniques and correct driving lines are very critical as well. If we are to compare data logs, I am willing to bet money that my initial and mid cornering speed (where extra hp and lsd won't play much of a factor) are significantly higher than yours, even with the same tires. And honestly, I am very unimpressed by these TCK DA after running them for half of season, especially when comparing them to the 8 year old factory Ohlins shocks on my bike. I really doubt they are that much better than your koni yellow.

All in all, these cars need significant negative camber when running hard on tracks with sticky tires. I think anyone who has significant track experience would totally agree with the above statement. Sorry to be blunt, but I don't see the point of you keep on trying to argue against this.

[chris82]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

And honestly, I am very unimpressed by these TCK DA after running them for half of season, especially when comparing them to the 8 year old factory Ohlins shocks on my bike. I really doubt they are that much better than your koni yellow.

Well, they are a revalved Koni that has upgraded components

[Kgolf31]

-3.6* Camber. I still get sever shoulder wear.

Rotate tires front/back after every event as well.

Guess which is the outside

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

And honestly, I am very unimpressed by these TCK DA after running them for half of season, especially when comparing them to the 8 year old factory Ohlins shocks on my bike. I really doubt they are that much better than your koni yellow.

LOL...okay.

Because comparing them to your bike shocks first off are really the best data point.

What's your typical setting for rebound and compression for front/rear?

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

LOL...okay.

Because comparing them to your bike shocks first off are really the best data point.

What's your typical setting for rebound and compression for front/rear?

Gezzz, guess everyone is being super sensitive about their own cars today...

I would hate to detract this thread any further. But you should experience the capability of a high end monotube two or three way shock. And if you know anything about bikes, the suspension design on the BMW R series bikes are essentially a two wheel version of macperhson strut front (telelever) and double wishbone rear (paralever). So they are very different from most bikes with telescoping forks and rear swing arm and have more similarities to our cars than you think.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

We are arguing because you are claiming the hands on facts that me and the other poster presenting here are wrong, while you have no factual information to back up what you are claiming.

Where you get your factual information from?

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

If OP is running stock like camber, there is very little point of running a sticky compound since you will be wearing out the front shoulder prematurely on these cars. As a matter, significant negative front camber is required on any front engined macpherson strut cars.

Less sticky tires will wear out the shoulders even more. The contact area is offers less grip on harder tires that have smaller tread blocks which experience more distortion causing the tire to roll on it shoulder.

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Racing slicks have very different construction than the street tires we are taking about here. You argument doesn't make much sense at all.

Are you taking radial vs bias ply? All these tires we are talking about are radial. Same with slicks, could be radial or bias ply

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Fact is, You have seen how I drive and the lap times I put down. It is not all about the obvious hp advantage on my car, turn-in techniques and correct driving lines are very critical as well. If we are to compare data logs, I am willing to bet money that my initial and mid cornering speed (where extra hp and lsd won't play much of a factor) are significantly higher than yours, even with the same tires. And honestly, I am very unimpressed by these TCK DA after running them for half of season, especially when comparing them to the 8 year old factory Ohlins shocks on my bike. I really doubt they are that much better than your koni yellow.

The tires are only part of the equation. The alignment is different and my springs are softer. So of course your speed will be higher although the tires and the Koni's are pretty much the same.

So I have something better to bet money on: let switch car and see who's initial and mid cornering speed would be higher

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

All in all, these cars need significant negative camber when running hard on tracks with sticky tires. I think anyone who has significant track experience would totally agree with the above statement. Sorry to be blunt, but I don't see the point of you keep on trying to argue against this.

We all know why you need more negative camber on these and all cars for that matter.
You said I lack factual information. True, if you leave out me taking for granted all that is written on the forums and at least 20 sets of tires I have went through since mid 90's doing hill climbing and 2005 here in the US going on various tracks.
My experience is that softer tire will wear out quicker, no doubt, but hard tires will have more shoulder damage in compassion (more damage isolated to the shoulder only) from the reasons I explained above.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Gezzz, guess everyone is being super sensitive about their own cars today...

I would hate to detract this thread any further. But you should experience the capability of a high end monotube two or three way shock. And if you know anything about bikes, the suspension design on the BMW R series bikes are essentially a two wheel version of macperhson strut front (telelever) and double wishbone rear (paralever). So they are very different from most bikes with telescoping forks and rear swing arm and have more similarities to our cars than you think.

I don't think shocks are the problem:

TCK DAs here:

1st Place ClassToledo ProSolo 2014

1st Place Class Wilmington ProSolo 2015
Super Shootout and overall 1st place at Wilmington ProSolo

http://www.scca.com/articles/1995688...hallenge-title

Also, actual loading of a strut is completely different.

[Cloud9blue]

*

Originally Posted by feuer

Where you get your factual information from?

A full track season with -2.4 camber and R-S3 tires. Dunno why you bother to ask...

Less sticky tires will wear out the shoulders even more. The contact area is offers less grip on harder tires that have smaller tread blocks which experience more distortion causing the tire to roll on it shoulder.

What you stated has no factual correlation at all! Shoulder wears are due to sidewall stiffness, as softer sidewall will lead to more distort of the tire under load, leading to more outer shoulder wear. And also due to your suspension setup, MacPherson struts lose negative camber under sever compression, so you need stiffer front springs and/or stiff front anti-roll bar and more static negative camber to account for this inherent behavior from these types of suspension. You also have to consider that stickier tires will generate more lateral G; thus, more load on the outer suspension, further compressing the strut and therefore losing more negative camber

Are you taking radial vs bias ply? All these tires we are talking about are radial. Same with slicks, could be radial or bias ply

Yes, all automotive tires are radial these days... But have a look amount of tire distortion of slick tires on the GT class cars. They undergo significantly less distort distortion than our street tires (R compound tires like NT01 are still pretty much a street tire FYI), despite the much higher lateral G and all the aero downforce. You do realize that even with radial tires, the construction of the tire carcass can varies significantly (use of kevlar, polyamide/nylon reinforce fibers, plastic sidewall inserts, different gauge of steel cables used, and different weaving configuration with the cables, etc...)

The tires are only part of the equation. The alignment is different and my springs are softer. So of course your speed will be higher although the tires and the Koni's are pretty much the same.

Honestly, my mid corning speed and lateral G data while still running -2.4 front camber and BMW PS kit from last year is pretty comparable to the data I have from this year with the TCK DA. My old setup is pretty much identical to yours, and we had the same tires. You can deduct your own conclusion there...

So I have something better to bet money on: let switch car and see who's initial and mid cornering speed would be higher

Yeah, no thanks Unless you are buying me a F80 or 991 if anything ever happens to it.

We all know why you need more negative camber on these and all cars for that matter.
You said I lack factual information. True, if you leave out me taking for granted all that is written on the forums and at least 20 sets of tires I have went through since mid 90's doing hill climbing and 2005 here in the US going on various tracks.
My experience is that softer tire will wear out quicker, no doubt, but hard tires will have more shoulder damage in compassion (more damage isolated to the shoulder only) from the reasons I explained above.

As with most things on internet, there is no way to verify the validity of someone's else experience, particular when you are comparing your previous cars, with vastly different chassis/suspension/drivetrain setups, and different tires as well. In the end, while there is definitely still much much room to improve in my driving, I have been able to drive this car near its chassis limit consistently at the track while you were unable to do so due the various engine and suspension issues you had over the months. Fact is fact-I put down much faster laptime and better corning speed that you have been able to achieve (my apology if this make me sound like an asshole), and this caused the outer shoulder to wear out prematurely on my R-S3. I don't see how stating my own observation is equivalent to "believing whatever is written on a forum".

Honestly, I fail to see what's the point of you keep on arguing about this.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

I don't think shocks are the problem:

TCK DAs here:

1st Place ClassToledo ProSolo 2014

1st Place Class Wilmington ProSolo 2015
Super Shootout and overall 1st place at Wilmington ProSolo

http://www.scca.com/articles/1995688...hallenge-title

Also, actual loading of a strut is completely different.

You do realize road course setups are very different from auto-x. And honestly, without sponsorship money, not many weekend drivers are willing to spend the big buck for high end shocks like Ohlins TTX/MCS/Moton and etc., especially at auto-x level. With so many other variables, such as driver, car, and tires, I don't see some regional auto-x winnings are good indications that these are the "best" suspension out there.

I am not saying that these TCK DA are bad. They are still a HUGE upgrade from the stock shocks on our cars; but as I mentioned before in another thread, if you are already spending +$3k on a set of coilovers, there are vastly better options out there if you are willing to spend $2-3k more. If you don't believe me, I would highly recommend getting a ride in a car with high end shocks.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Honestly, my mid corning speed and lateral G data while still running -2.4 front camber and BMW PS kit from last year is pretty comparable to the data I have from this year with the TCK DA. My old setup is pretty much identical to yours, and we had the same tires. You can deduct your own conclusion there...

With your tires from last year or with the new tires?

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Fact is fact-I put down much faster laptime and better corning speed that you have been able to achieve (my apology if this make me sound like an asshole)

No, no, I agree and tell every one that you are very good driver and probably better then myself.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by feuer

With your tires from last year or with the new tires?

No, no, I agree and tell every one that you are very good driver and probably better then myself.

Tire from last year!

Now you are just trolling... I am done with this conversation... Life would be so much easier for everyone, if we can all just apply some sound reasoning from time to time.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

You do realize road course setups are very different from auto-x. And honestly, without sponsorship money, not many weekend drivers are willing to spend the big buck for high end shocks like Ohlins TTX/MCS/Moton and etc., especially at auto-x level. With so many other variables, such as driver, car, and tires, I don't see some regional auto-x winnings are good indications that these are the "best" suspension out there.

I am not saying that these TCK DA are bad. They are still a HUGE upgrade from the stock shocks on our cars; but as I mentioned before in another thread, if you are already spending +$3k on a set of coilovers, there are vastly better options out there if you are willing to spend $2-3k more. If you don't believe me, I would highly recommend getting a ride in a car with high end shocks.

REGIONAL? Are you serious?

These are National Events. Top caliber drivers who come from across the US to attend these. Let me know any National events at track you've placed P1 and I'll shut my mouth. But in the meantime here's just more evidence:

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files...pdf?1435088626

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files...pdf?1433782537

And you should actually come out to a National event and walk around. Every car is full prep, sporting high end shocks. Your education of what a local event versus National event is far off.

Also, $3000 is a chunk of change.

Lets not forget that I have around $10k+ invested into my build so $2000 isn't so easy.

Pretty simple, I have results to back up my claims, you have yet to show any.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Tire from last year!

Now you are just trolling... I am done with this conversation... Life would be so much easier for everyone, if we can all just apply some sound reasoning from time to time.

Just FYI steady state cornering G loading has little to do with shocks.

But continue.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

REGIONAL? Are you serious?

These are National Events. Top caliber drivers who come from across the US to attend these. Let me know any National events at track you've placed P1 and I'll shut my mouth. But in the meantime here's just more evidence:

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files...pdf?1435088626

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files...pdf?1433782537

And you should actually come out to a National event and walk around. Every car is full prep, sporting high end shocks. Your education of what a local event versus National event is far off.

Also, $3000 is a chunk of change.

Lets not forget that I have around $10k+ invested into my build so $2000 isn't so easy.

Pretty simple, I have results to back up my claims, you have yet to show any.

Well, I admit suck balls at auto-x, because I always get lost in the middle of the course, lol. And honestly, the attitude I encountered from some of the auto-x groups, which is pretty evident from your own on this thread, just really wasn't my cup of tea either. Never understood why, since the HPDE crowds are much more relaxed, even with the few bad apples here and there.

I am not trying to say I am the driving god here nor I am saying these shocks are crap (or else why would I still have them on my car???). All I am saying there are better options out there, if you can stretch your budget out there a bit. Just not sure why you are getting your panty in a bunch over this trivial matter. BTW, you do realize a good auto-x setup =/= road course setup, right?

But anyway, believe whatever you want to believe if it makes you happy. And if you like your current setup to the point that you have to actively deny other people's statement that there are better options out there, well, good for you I guess. I don't see the point of arguing with a "fanboy" like you.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Just FYI steady state cornering G loading has little to do with shocks.

But continue.

That is what I thought and hence the reason for asking. I was genuine. Wasn't meant to be offensive and get people angry.

Anyhow, let all of us abandon this thread. Even for someone like myself who is argumentative and stubborn this is getting little out of hand.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Just FYI steady state cornering G loading has little to do with shocks.

But continue.

FYI, steady state later G has little to do with shocks, yes, if you are running on a glass smooth FIA rated track like COTA or a dedicated skid pad.

The local club level tracks that we have at the midwest (Gingerman, Autobahn, Blackhawk, etc.) actually have quite a bit of surface irregularity (asphalt patches, cracks, dip in the surface) at most of the corners. Together with elevation change, and such, shock/damping characteristics will affect the max. lateral G by quite a bit.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Well, I admit suck balls at auto-x, because I always get lost in the middle of the course, lol. And honestly, the attitude I encountered from some of the auto-x groups, which is pretty evident from your own on this thread, just really wasn't my cup of tea either. Never understood why, since the HPDE crowds are much more relaxed, even with the few bad apples here and there.

I am not trying to say I am the driving god here nor I am saying these shocks are crap (or else why would I still have them on my car???). All I am saying there are better options out there, if you can stretch your budget out there a bit. Just not sure why you are getting your panty in a bunch over this trivial matter. BTW, you do realize a good auto-x setup =/= road course setup, right?

But anyway, believe whatever you want to believe if it makes you happy. And if you like your current setup to the point that you have to actively deny other people's statement that there are better options out there, well, good for you I guess. I don't see the point of arguing with a "fanboy" like you.

Easily, however I don't consider TCK DAs the same as yellows. TCK has specific valving curves that are ideal for each car, and there have been people that have taken apart more expensive shocks to replicate the shock curves.


There are better shocks, however it comes down to "Do I want to spend that $2000 to gain that tenth?"

[chris82]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

You do realize road course setups are very different from auto-x. And honestly, without sponsorship money, not many weekend drivers are willing to spend the big buck for high end shocks like Ohlins TTX/MCS/Moton and etc., especially at auto-x level. With so many other variables, such as driver, car, and tires, I don't see some regional auto-x winnings are good indications that these are the "best" suspension out there.

I am not saying that these TCK DA are bad. They are still a HUGE upgrade from the stock shocks on our cars; but as I mentioned before in another thread, if you are already spending +$3k on a set of coilovers, there are vastly better options out there if you are willing to spend $2-3k more. If you don't believe me, I would highly recommend getting a ride in a car with high end shocks.

I'm just curious what you are not impressed with about the TCK DA, can you elaborate? What's your spring rate?

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by chris82

I'm just curious what you are not impressed with about the TCK DA, can you elaborate? What's your spring rate?

400lb/in front and 700lb/in rear, paired with Vorshlag camber front, and Powerflex Black upper rear shock mount and M3 lower camber arm.

IMO the shocks are unable to fully damp out the low frequency/speed movement of the car even when the rebound and compression are dialed up. While the high speed damping is too harsh, so when at the higher rebound and compression setting, so the ride is a bit harsh and you are losing more traction than you should when braking hard over any surface irregularity on the track.