[tony20009]

Is lawyering any different that medicine, engineering or accountancy? There are doctors who have not passed their medical board exams. There are accountants who are not CPAs or CMAs. There are engineers who are not P.E.s. In the legal profession, is it any different? Can one not appoint whomever one wants, regardless of their having passed the state bar or not, to represent them in court?

Off Topic:
It seems to me that if one can act as one's own attorney, one can also designate some other "fool" to do so as well.

All the best.

[bd5400]

Originally Posted by tony20009

Is lawyering any different that medicine, engineering or accountancy? There are doctors who have not passed their medical board exams. There are accountants who are not CPAs or CMAs. There are engineers who are not P.E.s. In the legal profession, is it any different? Can one not appoint whomever one wants, regardless of their having passed the state bar or not, to represent them in court?

Off Topic:
It seems to me that if one can act as one's own attorney, one can also designate some other "fool" to do so as well.

All the best.

No, you cannot appoint whoever you want, regardless of their having passed the state bar. Passing the bar gives you permission to appear before the court. If you show up in court and you are not admitted to the bar, the court will not allow you to represent someone.

Generally, the only way to be admitted to the bar (and thus be a licensed attorney) is to hold a J.D. and to have passed a bar exam. There are a few exceptions. In Wisconsin, if you go to one of their two law schools, you do not need to sit for a bar exam and are automatically admitted upon graduation. This is because they build Wisconsin law directly into the curriculum at the two schools. Additionally, there are exceptions for being admitted into some states if you are already a practicing attorney. Experienced attorneys can often be admitted without a bar exam but they must have sat for one previously (ruling out Wisconsin attorneys who were auto-admitted) and they usually must demonstrate some level of advanced work history.

Then of course there are some reciprocal states as well as the UBE, which allows you to sit for a single exam and transfer your score to a handful of states so long as it is high enough. That's really handy for new graduates who are open about where they want to practice.

You don't have to be a licensed attorney to work in the legal field however. While most are licensed, in-house counsel and some legal HR roles do not necessarily require you to be admitted to the bar (or at the very least, they want you to be admitted to a bar, but not necessarily the state you are in). If you aren't going to ever appear before a court, or serve clients, then you do not need to be admitted. It is just a good idea to maintain your licensed if you plan to stay in the legal field.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by bd5400

No, you cannot appoint whoever you want, regardless of their having passed the state bar. Passing the bar gives you permission to appear before the court. If you show up in court and you are not admitted to the bar, the court will not allow you to represent someone.

Generally, the only way to be admitted to the bar (and thus be a licensed attorney) is to hold a J.D. and to have passed a bar exam. ....[and following which has been deleted for space]

TY. I didn't know that. So it's similar in some ways to other professions and different in other ways. TY for the explanation.

All the best.

[AIRPOWER]

Bar or no bar.......I refer to all of them as douchebags

[UncleWede]

My dad has both a JD and passed the bar in CALIFORNIA. I also have a friend who has only passed the bar, no JD, in CALFORNIA. They can both represent me in court, and can call themselves either an attorney at law, or a lawyer, in CALIFORNIA

[bd5400]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

My dad has both a JD and passed the bar in CALIFORNIA. I also have a friend who has only passed the bar, no JD, in CALFORNIA. They can both represent me in court, and can call themselves either an attorney at law, or a lawyer, in CALIFORNIA

This is news to me (regarding the no JD thing). If they are both admitted they are both attorneys and technically your friend can call themselves a lawyer since they've still studied law, they just don't possess a J.D.

Apparently there are a few states (including California) where you can do an apprenticeship to take the bar rather than obtain a J.D. degree (though a couple require you to have a partial law school education). Allegedly, there were only 60 people in the country who did this in 2013 (out of nearly 84,000 people who took bar exams). A large majority of them failed the exam.

I'm assuming most of them have apprenticeships with people who intend to hire them once admitted because good luck showing up to an interview without a J.D.

[UncleWede]

My friend was a cop, then switched gears. He was an apprentice with one firm, he seemed to know the owner well. After about 3 tries, they sorta gave up on him. He took it a fourth time and passed, then another firm picked him up. He has shown up, on his own, to represent some criminal defendants at prelims when the primary defender had other commitments.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

My dad has both a JD and passed the bar in CALIFORNIA. I also have a friend who has only passed the bar, no JD, in CALFORNIA. They can both represent me in court, and can call themselves either an attorney at law, or a lawyer, in CALIFORNIA

Isn't that what is sometimes called "reading the law?" IIRC from high school American history classes (and I may not for that was some 45+ years ago) that is how Abraham Lincoln became an attorney. All in all, it strikes me as the legal world's equivalent of St. John's College "Great Books" approach to higher education, but I don't know any lawyers who've "read the law."

All the best.

[FJJB]

Certain states allow you to sit for the bar exam and practice via an apprenticeship route (as opposed to law school).

And not to get overly technical, but some (not all) states allow you to sit for the bar with foreign (non US) law degree and a 1-year US Masters of Law (LLM) degree.