[justpete]

Originally Posted by whosdady

I would be careful making any purchases from AKG. I only made one purchase and will not buy from them again after an end link failed (after 3 months) and they denied my warranty.

They asked if I drove the car on the street and I said yes. Then they said their parts were not designed or warrantied for the street. Sure enough I looked at their website and the warranty corresponded with what the owner stated. He is a nice guy but I would never buy a part from a company that denies claims if the part is driven on the street... Who doesn't drive their car on the street? Even if it's a track car, many drive them to the track...

There's nothing wrong with AKG parts. Nobody would drive a race car on the street because it wouldn't be legal, thus race only would tend to imply no street driving. Pretty obvious. Was to me anyway. BTW, track car doesn't equal race car, it says for race use only not for track use only.

And I have AKG adjustable endlinks on the rear ARB. And it's my daily as well as a track car. But I know they'll fail and when they do I'll just install another set, they're disposable parts. Using their engine mounts and DSSR without the slightest problem as well.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Sered

Pretty much none of the bushing or mount upgrades will add any NVH by themselves. It's when you add them together with others that it can become a problem. You can run solid diff bushings/mounts with OEM or M3 subframe bushings; and there's not much nvh added. And vice versa.

Generally if you want to go much stiffer on both, it's best to get the poly and/or delrin varieties for everything if you're concerned about NVH.

And FWIW, BMW has made all new M cars to have solid-mounted subframes and those cars have great street manners.

I'm running all solid mounts and a fully spherical bearing suspension with race tuned dampers. And the Toyo R1R tires are louder, and have much stiffer sidewalls than the Pirelli P-Zero RFTs I was running before. The exhaust noise is greater than any noise from the suspension and unless the road is crazy bumpy it's perfectly fine and especially smooth on the highway.

The only thing that's different is whine from the diff on downshifting decel and gear rattle at idle from the trans since the flywheel is solid and the clutch discs are solid hub type. Maybe the whine would be less if the mounts weren't Delrin but it's only during engine braking so it's a don't-care.

[whosdady]

Originally Posted by justpete

There's nothing wrong with AKG parts. Nobody would drive a race car on the street because it wouldn't be legal, thus race only would tend to imply no street driving. Pretty obvious. Was to me anyway. BTW, track car doesn't equal race car, it says for race use only not for track use only.

And I have AKG adjustable endlinks on the rear ARB. And it's my daily as well as a track car. But I know they'll fail and when they do I'll just install another set, they're disposable parts. Using their engine mounts and DSSR without the slightest problem as well.

Good luck with the AKG end links... They lasted less than 3 months with minimal usage before they started making noise and falling apart.

Maybe my poor experience last year with AKG is a rarity? But the warranty and the explanation of non coverage was poor at best.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by whosdady

Good luck with the AKG end links... They lasted less than 3 months with minimal usage before they started making noise and falling apart.

Maybe my poor experience last year with AKG is a rarity? But the warranty and the explanation of non coverage was poor at best.

Mine have over 15K street miles (including chuckholes and speed bumps) on them along with more than a dozen track days, and they're perfect.

The warranty is very good but doesn't cover misunderstanding the meaning of 'race only'; not a dig, honestly, it's just that they really mean it and I suspect most of us gloss over the disclaimer every time we see it.

I also have no illusions about their polyurethane engine mounts lasting as long as OEM parts either but they're worth every penny. AKG makes seriously good stuff.

[whosdady]

Originally Posted by justpete

Mine have over 15K street miles (including chuckholes and speed bumps) on them along with more than a dozen track days, and they're perfect.

The warranty is very good but doesn't cover misunderstanding the meaning of 'race only'; not a dig, honestly, it's just that they really mean it and I suspect most of us gloss over the disclaimer every time we see it.

I also have no illusions about their polyurethane engine mounts lasting as long as OEM parts either but they're worth every penny. AKG makes seriously good stuff.

Good luck with your end links... I hope you never need to rely on their warranty.

http://www.akgmotorsport.com/warranty/

If you read their warranty you will see it's not for "race only." You will also see everything is at their discretion and includes a laundry list of exclusions including: off road, track, street, educational, etc. Who doesn't fit into one of these categories? Basically this is an easy way to deny a warranty and this is what happened to me.

Again, my experience with them has been different than yours. I'm glad it's worked out for you...

[justpete]

Originally Posted by whosdady

Good luck with your end links... I hope you never need to rely on their warranty.

http://www.akgmotorsport.com/warranty/

If you read their warranty you will see it's not for "race only." You will also see everything is at their discretion and includes a laundry list of exclusions including: off road, track, street, educational, etc. Who doesn't fit into one of these categories? Basically this is an easy way to deny a warranty and this is what happened to me.

Again, my experience with them has been different than yours. I'm glad it's worked out for you...

Yep, definitely a case of reading comprehension failure.

I said I'm not relying on their warranty. I mean, really, who gives a shit? The part costs are so low it's immaterial. And I'm guessing you didn't install them correctly if you got so little use out of them compared to my vastly greater use without an issue. I swear, if you can't afford to maintain a track car, buy a friggin Camry dude.

[Fundguy1]

I wanted a little more drivablity than those but stiffer than M3. My AKG black fit the bill. Rear is locked solid and ride isn't harsh. Just saying.

[whosdady]

Originally Posted by justpete

Yep, definitely a case of reading comprehension failure.

I said I'm not relying on their warranty. I mean, really, who gives a shit? The part costs are so low it's immaterial. And I'm guessing you didn't install them correctly if you got so little use out of them compared to my vastly greater use without an issue. I swear, if you can't afford to maintain a track car, buy a friggin Camry dude.

I guess I will just come out and say it. I think AKG makes cheap products and find ways not to warranty their them... But don't take my word for it. Just do a google search. There have been a lot of issues with the AKG bushings and the e36 M3 crowd.

With regard to my personal car. Robc1976 installed most of my after market parts. He's probably installed over 30 of sets end links. He's only seen two failures. Guess who manufactured them? Yes, the two different failures were made by AKG.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by whosdady

I guess I will just come out and say it. I think AKG makes cheap products and find ways not to warranty their them... But don't take my word for it. Just do a google search. There have been a lot of issues with the AKG bushings and the e36 M3 crowd.

With regard to my personal car. Robc1976 installed most of my after market parts. He's probably installed over 30 sets end links. He's only seen two failures. Guess who manufactured them? Yes, the two different failures were made by AKG.

You bought some dirt cheap parts

Didn't read or understand the disclaimer

Didn't read the warranty

Couldn't tell from the obvious picture on their website that the ballends aren't sealed meaning no one with the slightest experience would use these parts on the street

Misinstalled them (obviously) and couldn't see that the ballends weren't sealed and thus shouldn't be used on a street car (obviously)

Misused them (obviously)

And then went whingeing to the mfg about their lousy quality?

LMAO, how the fuck old are you?

Here's a tip, your evaluation of AKG endlinks isn't worth a bucket of runny shit, statistically speaking.

Oh, and btw, mine isn't either, obviously.

[whosdady]

Originally Posted by justpete

You bought some dirt cheap parts

Didn't read or understand the disclaimer

Didn't read the warranty

Couldn't tell from the obvious picture on their website that the ballends aren't sealed meaning no one with the slightest experience would use these parts on the street

Misinstalled them (obviously) and couldn't see that the ballends weren't sealed and thus shouldn't be used on a street car (obviously)

Misused them (obviously)

And then went whingeing to the mfg about their lousy quality?

LMAO, how the fuck old are you?

Here's a tip, your evaluation of AKG endlinks isn't worth a bucket of runny shit, statistically speaking.

Oh, and btw, mine isn't either, obviously.

Try not to take my *negative* experience with AKG personal.

I'm 41. How old are you? Does it matter?

Have you ever had a problem with a product and shared on a forum? I could go into full detail and share with you what Lisa said concerning my issue. However, I have no intention of doing so in this thread. If you are truly interested please pm me. Otherwise you can pray your end links don't break as your taking a hard right turn, as that day is rapidly approaching...

[feuer]

W

Originally Posted by whosdady

I could go into full detail and share with you what Lisa said concerning my issue.

Wait! What? Who is Lisa? Is this an American humor? As I don't get the reference!
Anyhow, Justpete is correct. Is not that I'm bias towards AKG but what is he saying is true. Race parts are just that, race parts! They are not designed with longevity in mind. The misconception roots from most of us using a race part of some sort that is superior than the factory part. For exapmle: aluminum coolant flange vs the plastic stock known to crack and leak. Now, unfortunatelly, this is not the rule across the board for all race oriented parts but we blindingly are expecting to be. Is not only AKG swaybar links, is also other parts from various manufacturers like control arm and toe links. People buy them, instal them, and they are mismatch with the rest of the suspension like softish springs, under dampen shocks and stiffer (since is the easiest mod) than stock swaybar on a daily driven car when all the stress will be on these AKG links and when the part fails prematurely they complain of clunks and squeaks. Again, I'm not AKG affiliate.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by whosdady

With all due respect your logic is flawed and your statement is incorrect. I have witnessed the opposite several times. Not to mention the distributor stated the opposite (Turner) (who sells and races both) and the manufacturer stated the opposite as well. If you question this, please contact Turner and ask them for yourself. The sales rep from the manufacturer is John. (I can't remember his last name but Turner will)

In addition, please remember that I have powerflex bushings in my subframe. I installed them over the delrin because I was advised the nvh could be too severe. I'm unhappy and can feel movement. The more movement, the more wear. And by the way, the grease that is supplied is used for lubrication. Not just for installation but also to prevent squeaking. Now ask yourself when it's cold, why PU bushings squeak... It's because there is movement. (Which causes wear)

Robc1976 is a good friend of mine and moved to delrin after his PU bushings failed prematurely. He had a lot of hp and had significant movement with his PU bushings. I should mention they were less than 2 years old.

This thread sure turns into a mess quick. Perhaps you should check with your installation first before start bashing it. I have PU subframe mounts for almost 3 years now. Nearly 3 dozen track days and 25k miles later, no squeak even in single digit weather. The car was just on the lift last month for motor mounts install, and I did a thorough inspection of all the other mounts. My PU subframe mounts still look brand new after you wipe off the road grimes.

And I seriously doubt you can feel the subframe movement with PU mounts, especially on streets. Most likely you are feeling the tire flex...

Btw, please point out where my argument is false. Reliability is not a concern with correctly installed PU mounts, as with aluminum or delrin.

[whosdady]

Originally Posted by feuer

W

Wait! What? Who is Lisa? Is this an American humor? As I don't get the reference!
Anyhow, Justpete is correct. Is not that I'm bias towards AKG but what is he saying is true. Race parts are just that, race parts! They are not designed with longevity in mind. The misconception roots from most of us using a race part of some sort that is superior than the factory part. For exapmle: aluminum coolant flange vs the plastic stock known to crack and leak. Now, unfortunatelly, this is not the rule across the board for all race oriented parts but we blindingly are expecting to be. Is not only AKG swaybar links, is also other parts from various manufacturers like control arm and toe links. People buy them, instal them, and they are mismatch with the rest of the suspension like softish springs, under dampen shocks and stiffer (since is the easiest mod) than stock swaybar on a daily driven car when all the stress will be on these AKG links and when the part fails prematurely they complain of clunks and squeaks. Again, I'm not AKG affiliate.

Lisa works/ed for AKG. She was the one taking the orders and handling the returns when I had my problem. Yes Im an American who lives 4.5 hours away from you.

It's funny that one automatically assumes it's installer error if a part fails prematurely...

Just do a google search on "AKG" and "failed." You will quickly see I'm not the only one who has had a problem. I should also note I haven't had an issue with my current non AKG end links.

[whosdady]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

This thread sure turns into a mess quick. Perhaps you should check with your installation first before start bashing it. I have PU subframe mounts for almost 3 years now. Nearly 3 dozen track days and 25k miles later, no squeak even in single digit weather. The car was just on the lift last month for motor mounts install, and I did a thorough inspection of all the other mounts. My PU subframe mounts still look brand new after you wipe off the road grimes.

And I seriously doubt you can feel the subframe movement with PU mounts, especially on streets. Most likely you are feeling the tire flex...

Btw, please point out where my argument is false. Reliability is not a concern with correctly installed PU mounts, as with aluminum or delrin.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why delrin and aluminum outlast a PU bushing. I've referred you to the manufacturer and the distributor who sell both... Please contact them directly before you post otherwise...

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by whosdady

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why delrin and aluminum outlast a PU bushing. I've referred you to the manufacturer and the distributor who sell both... Please contact them directly before you post otherwise...

This is like saying a forged wheel will outlast a quality flow formed wheel... Sure, but the truth is other components of your car will need to be replaced way before this will fail... And just because you heard about bad experience from manufacturer, doesn't mean all of them made by different companies are crap. Again, I will state this again for you, making the decision solely on reliability and not accounting for other is just silly. Try reading mine and other's people response again...

And how the are end links related to PU bushings again? Your reading comprehension and deductive reasoning really needs some work... As you said, this isn't rocket science...

[whosdady]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

This is like saying a forged wheel will outlast a quality flow formed wheel... Sure, but the truth is other components of your car will need to be replaced way before this will fail... And just because you heard about bad experience from manufacturer, doesn't mean all of them made by different companies are crap. Again, I will state this again for you, making the decision solely on reliability and not accounting for other is just silly. Try reading mine and other's people response again...

And how the are end links related to PU bushings again? Your reading comprehension and deductive reasoning really needs some work... As you said, this isn't rocket science...

There is no need to belittle someone because they disagree with you. Clearly you think you know more than a company that races on a professional level, and sells thousands of suspension parts every year. (Including the parts we are specifically discussing)

I can only give you the facts as they were presented to me. Then ask you to speak with the entities that build, race and sell them... If you continue to pretend you know it all, you will likely never become more knowledgable.

Your comparison of the wheels is weak at best. Wheels are not considered a wear item, where as bushings are. Try comparing apples to apples next time...

Furthermore, if you're going to try and degrade someone, you may want to make sure you aren't failing at the same thing you are trying to criticize.

[mob17]

I got AKG 75D subframe bushes but aint fitted them yet. Biggest hurdle is finding a shop who can install them by lowering each corner a bit, but most say subframe needs to come off?

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by whosdady

There is no need to belittle someone because they disagree with you. Clearly you think you know more than a company that races on a professional level, and sells thousands of suspension parts every year. (Including the parts we are specifically discussing)

I can only give you the facts as they were presented to me. Then ask you to speak with the entities that build, race and sell them... If you continue to pretend you know it all, you will likely never become more knowledgable.

Your comparison of the wheels is weak at best. Wheels are not considered a wear item, where as bushings are. Try comparing apples to apples next time...

Furthermore, if you're going to try and degrade someone, you may want to make sure you aren't failing at the same thing you are trying to criticize.

There is something you fail to understand. Bushings for the subframe are not really wear items, especially for your street use... Why, because it experiences very little movement, unlike the stock hollow rubber bushings. There are plenty of users who use them on racetrack, me included, I have yet to hear about one single failure.

Sure, there are places where you shouldn't use PU if are concern about long term durability, such as control arm bushing where it experience high degree of movements and high heat environment such as motor mounts that are in close proximity to the exhaust. Subframe mounts fortunately doesn't have to put up with any of that.

Anyway, you can keep on denying the facts that have been presented in front of you. But I am sure other readers can draw their own conclusion.

Just FYI, wheels are wear items as well by your definition. The aluminum/magnesium alloy actually do flex and undergoes metal fatigue especially used with slicks and aero. They are replaced quite regularly in pro-level racing. But is that relevant to a mostly street car? No... Same goes for your argument of PU vs. Al/delrin.

Unless your car is a stripped out track car and/or willing to pay extra labor for installing aluminum/delrin bushings, which can be a pain to insert due to close tolerance and minimal give of these materials, you are much better off with PU of high durometer rating.

[whosdady]

I don't recall giving you a definition of a wear item? If you consider a wheel a wear item, I don't think there is any hope for you.

Here is my very simple definition... A wear item, is something that wears out eventually needing to be replaced. It usually has a predetermined usage shelf life. IE tires, windshield wiper blades, belts, etc.

Yes, wheels may become damaged and require a replacement. And others may change out their wheels because of preference in looks or performance... But are not considered wear items. Using your logic implies the entire car is a wear item. If I total it I will need to replace it...

Bushings are considered wear items. Whether in a control arm or in the subframe. They fail, especially on cars that were built 13 years ago. There are also certain after market brands and *materials* that have a shorter shelf life than others...

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by whosdady

I don't recall giving you a definition of a wear item? If you consider a wheel a wear item, I don't think there is any hope for you.

Here is my very simple definition... A wear item, is something that wears out eventually needing to be replaced. It usually has a predetermined usage shelf life. IE tires, windshield wiper blades, belts, etc.

Yes, wheels may become damaged and require a replacement. And others may change out their wheels because of preference in looks or performance... But are not considered wear items. Using your logic implies the entire car is a wear item. If I total it I will need to replace it...

Bushings are considered wear items. Whether in a control arm or in the subframe. They fail, especially on cars that were built 13 years ago. There are also certain after market brands and *materials* that have a shorter shelf life than others...

Sigh... arguing with someone who don't bother to read is pointless. I rest my case. Enjoy believing whatever you believing.

[whosdady]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Sigh... arguing with someone who don't bother to read is pointless. I rest my case. Enjoy believing whatever you believing.

Why would I waste my time reading how you consider wheels a wear item?

If you want to know the truth about solid bushings outlasting PU bushings, don't take my word for it. Contact Turner!! They have experience with both types of subframe bushings on hundreds of customer's cars. Not to mention their own race cars. They have more experience than you ever will... You can rest your case because you are wrong...

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by mob17

I got AKG 75D subframe bushes but aint fitted them yet. Biggest hurdle is finding a shop who can install them by lowering each corner a bit, but most say subframe needs to come off?

Mine came off so idk if it is necessary or not.