[thegeneral101]

Originally Posted by Humtek

This is why we have Seinfeld. A show about nothing. Not that there's anything wrong with that

On topic... until we have an engine failure everything is speculation until we found out the limits of this motor. We can argue all day what tune is safe, what tune is underpowered, and what tune is faster.

I'm sure an engine failure will happen somewhat soon, we are already seeing people swapping turbos now so it shouldn't be too long. I guess we are all waiting to see when the "real" limits are

[hotrod2448]

It's going to take a few failure's but, also for someone to decide to bypass BMW and handle the rebuild themselves. Otherwise we'll know it broke but, not how, why or what needs to fixed. Maybe just a general failure but, you know that engine is going back to BMW for inspection.

Also, it is not just a cut and dry line like 500hp and your motor will fail. There are some guys that got their Evo's to live on stock internals at 500hp other's could kill it with basic bolt ons and a tune. It just depends.

[jpsimon]

yeah it all depends. I guarantee the first blown engine on this forum will be user error of some sort and not due to any one tune

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by e.n335

- 407hp / 429tq are the flywheel numbers of the new Dinan stage 2 package
- 410hp / 430tq are the flywheel numbers of the new AA Active Processor package

Both companies have quite a lot of experience in tuning BMW engines, both companies applied forced induction to BMW NA engines. The companies use very different methods for the tuning ( ECU flash vs. piggyback ), both upgrade the FMIC's and don't use aftermarket intakes or downpipes. In both companies reliability of the tuned cars has high priority and is part of their long-term strategy.

Do we see engine / drivetrain limitations here or do you think it's all just by accident - what is your opinion ?

Cheers,
Eugen

So the AA blow-off valve is worth 3 hp/1lb.
Who said blow-off valves don't produce gains.

[NM_BMW]

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

It's going to take a few failure's but, also for someone to decide to bypass BMW and handle the rebuild themselves. Otherwise we'll know it broke but, not how, why or what needs to fixed. Maybe just a general failure but, you know that engine is going back to BMW for inspection.

Also, it is not just a cut and dry line like 500hp and your motor will fail. There are some guys that got their Evo's to live on stock internals at 500hp other's could kill it with basic bolt ons and a tune. It just depends.

+1 Depending on the failure it will be hard to tell what this engine is capable of.

[Herms]

Originally Posted by e.n335

- 407hp / 429tq are the flywheel numbers of the new Dinan stage 2 package
- 410hp / 430tq are the flywheel numbers of the new AA Active Processor package

Both companies have quite a lot of experience in tuning BMW engines, both companies applied forced induction to BMW NA engines. The companies use very different methods for the tuning ( ECU flash vs. piggyback ), both upgrade the FMIC's and don't use aftermarket intakes or downpipes. In both companies reliability of the tuned cars has high priority and is part of their long-term strategy.

Do we see engine / drivetrain limitations here or do you think it's all just by accident - what is your opinion ?

Cheers,
Eugen

Could just be that they're trying to compete directly with them and are trying to match numbers (not sure, but I'm assuming AA package costs less than getting Dinan, as in same output less $ approach).

Also, could just be that they've trying to leave extra options open (Dinan still will offer an intake after the S2 package comes out, right?). Also, could be an issue of cost, both in terms of selecting additions that are more costly (as opposed to offering dps, for example) and that additional gains over what they have now would be too marginal to justify an additional $2k charge at Dinan.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by Herms

Could just be that they're trying to compete directly with them and are trying to match numbers (not sure, but I'm assuming AA package costs less than getting Dinan, as in same output less $ approach).

Also, could just be that they've trying to leave extra options open (Dinan still will offer an intake after the S2 package comes out, right?). Also, could be an issue of cost, both in terms of selecting additions that are more costly (as opposed to offering dps, for example) and that additional gains over what they have now would be too marginal to justify an additional $2k charge at Dinan.

I don't think that the OP was necessarily commenting on the competition between the two companies. But, if that is your interpretation, then that is cool too.

[Mr. 5]

I know there's a max power output for the turbos, but I believe it's all about the max psi and not the amount of power.

Some questions to ponder:

-I'd like to know what is the peak psi of each tune?
-I'd also like to know why everyone likes to talk about the golden number being 15 psi.
-What makes the number 15 special?
-Who made this decision not to cross the 15 psi number?
-Has there really been an analysis on the strain of the turbos and the max output is 15 psi?

Based on 13% drivetrain loss, I have 423/423 going on.
Based on 15% drvietrain loss, I have 433/433 going on.
These numbers are with peak 15 psi.

[OBI_agent]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

So the AA blow-off valve is worth 3 hp/1lb.
Who said blow-off valves don't produce gains.

Lol...


Anyway, this is regarding to the op of this thread. I think this dude going by the name walkedu stated that,his car was producing 438hp and 500lb/ft. I think he had almost everything needed to make his engine powerful except for ugraded turbo's. You name it ...from upgraded IC to DP's. Anyway, I can't find the thread where he wrote that but, I'm 100% sure that he said those numbers.

I'll look for his thread later on.

[JCbmw22]

Originally Posted by OBI_agent

Lol...


Anyway, this is regarding to the op of this thread. I think this dude going by the name walkedu stated that,his car was producing 438hp and 500lb/ft. I think he had almost everything needed to make his engine powerful except for ugraded turbo's. You name it ...from upgraded IC to DP's. Anyway, I can't find the thread where he wrote that but, I'm 100% sure that he said those numbers.

I'll look for his thread later on.

I think he was the one that blew his 6th cylinder...... but i cant find the thread

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

I know there's a max power output for the turbos, but I believe it's all about the max psi and not the amount of power.

Some questions to ponder:

-I'd like to know what is the peak psi of each tune?
-I'd also like to know why everyone likes to talk about the golden number being 15 psi.
-What makes the number 15 special?
-Who made this decision not to cross the 15 psi number?
-Has there really been an analysis on the strain of the turbos and the max output is 15 psi?

Based on 13% drivetrain loss, I have 423/423 going on.
Based on 15% drvietrain loss, I have 433/433 going on.
These numbers are with peak 15 psi.

I think that number was kind of set by Shiv a while ago. He said not to go over 15psi when you set your user torque settings and since then people think that it is the golden rule....

[Calgary Agent]

Originally Posted by e90AW335i

I think that number was kind of set by Shiv a while ago. He said not to go over 15psi when you set your user torque settings and since then people think that it is the golden rule....

I don't claim to know who was the first to offer piggy-back tunes for the N54 engine, but regardless of whether it was Shiv or someone else, the "golden rule", as you describe it, has nothing to do with what any individual decided was "safe", and more to do with energy balance. This ain't rocket science.

Say the stock ECU provides 8psi boost at sea level (with up to 11 psi for altitude / temperature adjustments). Every additional psi provides more air (read: oxygen) for the combustion event. When you add more Oxygen, you need more fuel (unless you want to allow your AFR to get seriously out of whack). I'd speculate that at 15psi boost (sea level), you're maxing out the duty cycle / deliverability of the fuel system (injectors / high pressure fuel pump). Anything beyond that is taxing the stock fuel system.

Not to mention the piggybacks do not, to the best of my knowledge, have the same ability to adjust fuel delivery in same manner as an ECU flash has.

Just my 2 cents .....

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

-I'd also like to know why everyone likes to talk about the golden number being 15 psi.
-What makes the number 15 special?
-Who made this decision not to cross the 15 psi number?
-Has there really been an analysis on the strain of the turbos and the max output is 15 psi?

You also need to consider engine RPM. If the turbos can support 14 - 15 PSI above 6k revs. They can easliy support 18 PSI at 3000 RPM. However, can the rest of the drivetrain handle that additional torque; only time will tell.

Heck, I have had a few turbo vehicles that made 18 - 20 PSI down low but the turbos would fall off up top ending with 12- 14 PSI by redline. And this was with the turbos running out of steam on their own.

As for the 15 PSI limit, IMO, it is is an easy number to live with now until more is known.

[Black Chili]

Why do engines fail.. cracked pistons and ring lands, piston pins & bosses, the rods fail or bend, bearings go, the block itself will fail either physically through broken mains, walls or by torque-flexing enough to distort the cylinder walls causing other types of failures; the crankshaft flexes, the cooling isn't absolutly PERFECT or sufficent around one or more cylinders causing hot spots and eventual failures, you can blow a head gasket, the valve train can go south at really high rpm... and lots of other things and under many different conditions (e.g.- sustained high-load operation, over a certian rpm limit- not uncommon to lower the redline with a LOT more power).

So talking about how much the motor can take without blowing up a quantity of them and seeing where the weak points are and under what conditions is all but a total waste of time.

Discussing how much power you can get from the motor in context of the existing limitations is much more worthwhile. Until we can find upgraded capacity injectors, fuel pumps and turbos (or turbo...), we won't really know the true (and safe) mechanical limits, which I'd guess are pretty high with this engine.

[hotrod2448]

Originally Posted by Calgary Agent

I don't claim to know who was the first to offer piggy-back tunes for the N54 engine, but regardless of whether it was Shiv or someone else, the "golden rule", as you describe it, has nothing to do with what any individual decided was "safe", and more to do with energy balance. This ain't rocket science.

Say the stock ECU provides 8psi boost at sea level (with up to 11 psi for altitude / temperature adjustments). Every additional psi provides more air (read: oxygen) for the combustion event. When you add more Oxygen, you need more fuel (unless you want to allow your AFR to get seriously out of whack). I'd speculate that at 15psi boost (sea level), you're maxing out the duty cycle / deliverability of the fuel system (injectors / high pressure fuel pump). Anything beyond that is taxing the stock fuel system.

Not to mention the piggybacks do not, to the best of my knowledge, have the same ability to adjust fuel delivery in same manner as an ECU flash has.

Just my 2 cents .....

You're forgetting the efficiency range of the turbo. Sure it might be able to push more than 15 psi but, it's probably so far out of it's efficiency range it isn't worth doing.

I would say 15psi is probably pretty close to both the fuel system and compressor efficiency limits but, again this is purely speculation.

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

You're forgetting the efficiency range of the turbo. Sure it might be able to push more than 15 psi but, it's probably so far out of it's efficiency range it isn't worth doing.

I would say 15psi is probably pretty close to both the fuel system and compressor efficiency limits but, again this is purely speculation.

Didn't someone post up the efficiency maps for our turbos a longgggg time ago....

I am gonna try and find it....

[hotrod2448]

Originally Posted by e90AW335i

Didn't someone post up the efficiency maps for our turbos a longgggg time ago....

I am gonna try and find it....

If they did I missed them.

[Herms]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

I don't think that the OP was necessarily commenting on the competition between the two companies. But, if that is your interpretation, then that is cool too.

right, the op was looking at the similar numbers and implying it could have something to do with the limits of the car, I was simply proposing another possible reason the numbers would be so similar.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by Herms

right, the op was looking at the similar numbers and implying it could have something to do with the limits of the car, I was simply proposing another possible reason the numbers would be so similar.

Yep, that's what I thought!

[judec]

some of the tuners (I suppose it includes vishnu) found the limit of the stock fuel system to be @ cca 410whp. I suppose 15psi +/-1 is just about sufficient for this kind of power, and still - the small turbos are not topped out.

Back to the topic - it's a nice finding Eugen, makes me think. Anyway - some while ago U mentioned a ZF engineer who had some ideas how to combine some parts of the 335d transmission with the 335i Step to strenghten it up to hold more torque. Any info U could share?

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by judec

some of the tuners (I suppose it includes vishnu) found the limit of the stock fuel system to be @ cca 410whp. I suppose 15psi +/-1 is just about sufficient for this kind of power, and still - the small turbos are not topped out.

Back to the topic - it's a nice finding Eugen, makes me think. Anyway - some while ago U mentioned a ZF engineer who had some ideas how to combine some parts of the 335d transmission with the 335i Step to strenghten it up to hold more torque. Any info U could share?

Currently no info but it would be worth a try to follow up ...

[Hegemony]

In answer to the OP,

Q: Why does the Dinan S2 package not include an intake and downpipes?

A: Because that's what Dinan S3 is for. The offroad upgrade for the ultimate enthusiast. (read as $$ for Dinan.)