[Pierre Louis]

Originally Posted by montr

In Europe, BMW recommends and sell diesel additive. It is just the LiquiMoly rebranded.
http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/83192296922/
https://www.amazon.co.uk/BMW-Origina.../dp/B00KKJI5C6

It is like the BMW gasoline engine fuel additive, the Techron rebranded to BMW.

So much for the theory that European diesel is superior to North American fuel, which some use to push additive use.

PL

[raptor_f22]

Archoil all the way. Have been using their products since I bought my e92 and having reviewed them on here, other e90 users have also gone on to use them and give positive feedback

[JTC1]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

One of the reasons I use an additive is because random sampling of available diesel in the midwest still shows a disturbing number of pump diesel being out of spec for lubricity and having cold flow properties higher than I like to see...

https://www.infineum.com/media/80722...ull-screen.pdf

Ditto on lubricity.

Interesting paper. Taking a quick scan through the document, I find it significant that the East Coast and Midwest as well as Canada have the lowest Cetane ratings in the world (mean of 44 and 45). They also have the lowest min. Cetane requirements. Right in line with what everyone has always suspected. Goes to show you that the petroleum industry isn't really interested in producing the best fuel possible, just the best fuel that meets the minimum requirement of that region. The most profitable and powerful industry in the world....sure they are looking out for my interests!

[NickTheStick]

Originally Posted by JTC1

Ditto on lubricity.

Interesting paper. Taking a quick scan through the document, I find it significant that the East Coast and Midwest as well as Canada have the lowest Cetane ratings in the world (mean of 44 and 45). They also have the lowest min. Cetane requirements. Right in line with what everyone has always suspected. Goes to show you that the petroleum industry isn't really interested in producing the best fuel possible, just the best fuel that meets the minimum requirement of that region. The most profitable and powerful industry in the world....sure they are looking out for my interests!

Diesel is garbage in the Midwest, and so are the politics that come along with it. Stations get discounts if they offer bio (in Illinois), but there is no law that requires the station to specify the percentage. IE. the station only has to list at the pump that the fuel is bio, and the percentage can vary from 5 to 20.

Most business owners share the money mindset, in that they want to make the most they can. Therefore, tons of stations offer crap bio so they can get a tax break.

Thats only the tip of the iceberg.

[lnxguy]

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

So much for the theory that European diesel is superior to North American fuel, which some use to push additive use.

PL

It's not a theory lol.

[davegris]

but not positive that most all of the diesel fuel in metro Atlanta flows through the same pipeline owned by Colonial Pipeline. That pipeline is the major one of two pipelines that serve Atlanta. It's the one that has had two separate issues (explosions) recently affecting gas and diesel prices and availability across parts of the Southeast. See link below.

I believe the local fuel distributors add their additives at the local distribution points. Who knows what kind of quality control they follow or how good the actual execution of that quality control plan is. I tend to believe it is probably pretty good, maybe even automated and excellent.

I have no problem using Diesel-Kleen to ensure at my micro-level of use I am getting the lubricity and cetane bumps I want. Never experienced any issues I would attribute to Diesel-Kleen. I don't necessarily hit every tankful with Diesel-Kleen as sometimes it s just not easy (traveling away from home...).


http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2016/10...gesttease_1101

[Nadir Point]

Originally Posted by davegris

I believe the local fuel distributors add their additives at the local distribution points.

This is true, IAW FAA regulations prohibiting anything but base fuel in pipelines. It's an airline safety issue, little known and completely overlooked by the pundits blindly expecting some intangible entity like an oil company, the gubmit, whatever, to look after their best interests.

[BB_cuda]

Originally Posted by Nadir Point

This is true, IAW FAA regulations prohibiting anything but base fuel in pipelines. It's an airline safety issue, little known and completely overlooked by the pundits blindly expecting some intangible entity like an oil company, the gubmit, whatever, to look after their best interests.

I spoke with a tanker driver on this. Truck is filled at the terminal and additive package is added to the truck's load.

My brother works for pipeline company so I will ask him as back up concerning base fuel only allowed in line or not.

[JOHNNYBRAVO1]

VP's fuel and additives have always been good stuff.. I use VPs Cetanium in the D and c12 and c16 and in my drag car and love there stuff.

[Pierre Louis]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

One of the reasons I use an additive is because random sampling of available diesel in the midwest still shows a disturbing number of pump diesel being out of spec for lubricity and having cold flow properties higher than I like to see...

https://www.infineum.com/media/80722...ull-screen.pdf

Infineum is a company that sells pre-retail (not aftermarket) additive and is incentivized to find problems in the fuel supply. http://www.infineum.com

There is no data that gives any information on outcomes (s.a. failed fuel pumps etc.) nor any data that helps one decide on if any aftermarket additive does anything of value (even if some numbers improve s/a cetane or lubricity). There is no evidence here that we should go out and buy additive for our beloved diesel after companies competing with Infineum have provided pre-retail additives already, since there is no outcome data. There have been studies that imply the quality of the base stock plus pre-market additive is what determines outcomes and which is not altered significantly by aftermarket additive, even if the numbers are better (think of a cholesterol drug that improves the numbers but is not proven to improve life expectancy or quality of life - there are such drugs on the market!).

Of note, for the entire East Coast, only 9 samples of diesel were used and this was winterized diesel, which tends to be tougher to produce. 32 samples were used for the entire Midwest and 10 samples only for the entire West Coast. Noteworthy that even the cetane numbers hovered into the mid to high 40's, which seems good. No detail is published in the report as to where the samples came from brand-wise as only regional refinery outputs were randomized. None of these numbers are significant statistically as the variability is likely too much for the number of samples used (i.e. one would need many more samples to make the conclusions from the data statistically significant for a particular region).

The Infineum survey seems good for only one thing, charting world trends in diesel quality measures according to how they have measured them.

PL

[kydiesel35]

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

Infineum is a company that sells pre-retail (not aftermarket) additive and is incentivized to find problems in the fuel supply. http://www.infineum.com

Again your in naysayers la la land....

All the "aftermarket" additive companies work closely with the chemists that sell additive packages to the large refineries. They both work together in conjunction to produce the best blends possible. The only downfall is they only need to have "bare minimum" lubricity and cetane, in order to make more $$$$ (Shell, BP, PL, you get it). 40 cetane and who knows what else? No thanks.

Lubricity being the cheapest chemical then deposit control, antigel, cetane, water control, being the most expensive.

Whatever you wanna believe is up to you man. But you are astronomically wrong.

I advise everyone on here to pick a good additive to run this winter to protect their investment. Don't be fooled.

[kydiesel35]

We are trying to be a community that helps each other to have the best possible outcomes to fix issues. Why are you knocking this? What's your objective? Do you believe everything a corporation tells you? Even BMW?

40k miles put on my car since I bought it. Injector history in the past and guess what??? None now, must be a coincidence huh...

Do what makes you happy

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

...
There is no data that gives any information on outcomes (s.a. failed fuel pumps etc.) nor any data that helps one decide on if any aftermarket additive does anything of value (even if some numbers improve s/a cetane or lubricity).

That's just silly, Pierre. Bosch and others HPFP manufacturers have published all kinds of data on HFRR and fuel pump longevity.

https://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasolin...22003bosch.pdf

Cold characteristics for those of us who live in cold weather is a critical parameter. Saying otherwise is silly. We'll be having single digit F highs and negative F lows this coming week. Having had diesel vehicles plug their fuel filters in extreme cold temps in the past, the cold flow properties are extremely important...

This is also something easy to test at home. You can take a sample and put it different containers with and without additive and test for yourself.

No supporting data that aftermarket additive do anything of value? This is just silly.

Of course, one can always find "reasons" not to believe measured data due to some aspect of the tradeoffs required in setting up the study, the cost of sample sizes, lab testing fees, resource constraints, etc....

[Pierre Louis]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

That's just silly, Pierre. Bosch and others HPFP manufacturers have published all kinds of data on HFRR and fuel pump longevity.

https://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasolin...22003bosch.pdf

Cold characteristics for those of us who live in cold weather is a critical parameter. Saying otherwise is silly. We'll be having single digit F highs and negative F lows this coming week. Having had diesel vehicles plug their fuel filters in extreme cold temps in the past, the cold flow properties are extremely important...

This is also something easy to test at home. You can take a sample and put it different containers with and without additive and test for yourself.

No supporting data that aftermarket additive do anything of value? This is just silly.

Of course, one can always find "reasons" not to believe measured data due to some aspect of the tradeoffs required in setting up the study, the cost of sample sizes, lab testing fees, resource constraints, etc....

When this presentation came out, the doomsday picture was frequent failed fuel pumps. That only happened, somewhat, with the CP4 Bosch pump. No other reports of failed pumps on a predictable scale.

Again, there is no reason to use aftermarket additives, only the belief that they might work. This is technically not "naysaying" but perhaps just a statistical argument.

PL

[Pierre Louis]

Originally Posted by kydiesel35

Again your in naysayers la la land....

All the "aftermarket" additive companies work closely with the chemists that sell additive packages to the large refineries. They both work together in conjunction to produce the best blends possible. The only downfall is they only need to have "bare minimum" lubricity and cetane, in order to make more $$$$ (Shell, BP, PL, you get it). 40 cetane and who knows what else? No thanks.

Lubricity being the cheapest chemical then deposit control, antigel, cetane, water control, being the most expensive.

Whatever you wanna believe is up to you man. But you are astronomically wrong.

I advise everyone on here to pick a good additive to run this winter to protect their investment. Don't be fooled.

Perhaps if you know of any information about actual failures in the field, and not just what you call "belief" would help.

Not believing is not the same as believing in the wrong thing.

PL

[Pierre Louis]

Originally Posted by kydiesel35

We are trying to be a community that helps each other to have the best possible outcomes to fix issues. Why are you knocking this? What's your objective? Do you believe everything a corporation tells you? Even BMW?

40k miles put on my car since I bought it. Injector history in the past and guess what??? None now, must be a coincidence huh...

Do what makes you happy

Don't take it personally. I don't believe or knock anything. Just stating factual information. Its up to you what you believe is the right thing to do. But don't call it anything else.

PL

[Persian Whisperjet]

There is much that is hype and snake oil in the fuel additives world.

It does not follow that all claims are bogus.

I would refer folks to tdiforum and DubFamily's carefully monitored results over tend of thousands of miles, showing a linear correlation between Optilube use and improved mileage.

[Nadir Point]

I can only see Louis' posts after somebody quotes him, because he went on my ignore list quite some time ago after our first interaction here. I did see his comment quoted above about some additive company being "incentivized" to find problems. People believing these companies have an incentive for anything other than profit must be either ignorant or a shill. I thought I remembered seeing something from this person a couple weeks ago regarding a new car and they no longer even own a BMW. If I was mistaken from reading between the quoted lines it wouldn't be the first time, but if that is the case, the shill possibility seems more likely. Maybe an unofficial shill who works or worked for one of the greedy corporations.

This is simple common sense once you get past the fact that money and the financial system from the Federal Reserve down to you and me and everybody in between provides the basis for everything to function in this society. All the rest of the related gobbledygook is just a bunch of conspiracy theories.

Who knows? Don't care. Just be careful what you read on the Internet.

As an aside, any word on the pipeline topic, BB? Wouldn't want anyone believing I'm spreading false or misleading information....

[BB_cuda]

Originally Posted by Nadir Point

As an aside, any word on the pipeline topic, BB? Wouldn't want anyone believing I'm spreading false or misleading information....

Forgot to ask him. I just wrote him now.

[Persian Whisperjet]

This is more in the mileage lane vice lubricity but FYI:

Originally Posted by DubFamily View Post
Round 1:
Optilube Summer Tank 1: (1oz added 4/24/13) 616.9 miles; 14.310 gallons added; 43.110 mpg
Optilube Summer Tank 2: (1oz added 4/29/13) 613.1 miles; 14.164 gallons added; 43.286 mpg
Optilube Summer+ Tank 1: (2oz added 5/03/13) 604.1 miles; 14.044 gallons added; 43.015 mpg
Optilube Summer+ Tank 2: (2oz added 5/09/13) 606.0 miles; 13.902 gallons added; 43.591 mpg
Un-additized Diesel Tank 1: (Pure D2 added 5/15/13) 573.7 miles; 13.806 gallons added; 41.554 mpg
Un-additized Diesel Tank (Outlier): (Pure D2 added 5/21/13) 605.2 miles; 13.638 gallons added; 44.361 mpg
Un-additized Diesel Tank 2: (Pure D2 added 5/24/13) 567.2 miles; 13.990 gallons added; 40.543 mpg
Optilube XPD Tank 1: (4oz added 5/30/13) 621.9 miles; 13.918 gallons added; 44.683 mpg
Optilube XPD Tank 2: (4oz added 6/05/13) 609.7 miles; 13.723 gallons added; 44.429 mpg

Round 2:
Optilube Summer Tank 3: (1oz added 7/10/13) 656.1 miles; 14.726 gallons added; 44.554 mpg
Optilube Summer Tank 4: (1oz added 7/15/13) 618.3 miles; 14.264 gallons added; 43.347 mpg
Optilube Summer Tank 5: (1oz added 7/19/13) 603.0 miles; 13.516 gallons added; 44.614 mpg
Optilube Summer+ Tank 3: (2oz added 7/26/13) 650.0 miles; 14.677 gallons added; 44.287 mpg
Optilube Summer+ Tank 4: (2oz added 8/02/13) 643.8 miles; 14.257 gallons added; 45.157 mpg
Optilube Summer+ Tank 5: (2oz added 8/09/13) 600.2 miles; 12.095 gallons added; 49.624 mpg
Un-additized Diesel Tank 3: (Pure D2 added 8/15/13) 524.0 miles; 13.792 gallons added; 37.993 mpg
Un-additized Diesel Tank 4: (Pure D2 added 8/27/13) 569.5 miles; 13.796 gallons added; 41.280 mpg
Un-additized Diesel Tank 5: (Pure D2 added 9/03/13) 586.6 miles; 14.307 gallons added; 41.001 mpg
Optilube XPD Tank 3: (4oz added 9/08/13) 609.2 miles; 14.173 gallons added; 42.983 mpg
Optilube XPD Tank 4: (4oz added 9/13/13) 651.4 miles; 14.251 gallons added; 45.709 mpg
Optilube XPD Tank 5: (4oz added 9/18/13) 679.4 miles; 14.241 gallons added; 47.707 mpg

Round 3 (Double Dose):
Optilube Summer Tank 1: (2oz added 9/23/13) 628.3 miles; 14.216 gallons added; 44.197 mpg
Optilube Summer Tank 2: (2oz added 9/30/13) 638.0 miles; 14.438 gallons added; 44.189 mpg
Optilube Summer+ Tank 1: (4oz added 10/05/13) 618.9 miles; 13.695 gallons added; 45.192 mpg
Optilube Summer+ Tank 2: (4oz added 10/11/13) 605.8 miles; 13.657 gallons added; 44.358 mpg
Optilube XPD Tank 1: (8oz added 10/17/13) 624.7 miles; 14.253 gallons added; 43.829 mpg
Optilube XPD Tank 2: (8oz added 10/24/13) 579.5.7 miles; 14.176 gallons added; 40.879 mpg

[floydarogers]

Anyone know if the biodiesel content is factored into the lubricity as delivered to the station? B5 makes for way better scar/HFRR scores than straight ULSD.

Although the CARB diesel scar standards are the same 520 HFRR, almost all the diesel in CA states is B5 or so.

For the newbies, TDIWyse and Pierre have been arguing this stuff for years. Although I have to say I've learned a lot from their posts.

[temporaptor]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

Anyone know if the biodiesel content is factored into the lubricity as delivered to the station? B5 makes for way better scar/HFRR scores than straight ULSD.

Although the CARB diesel scar standards are the same 520 HFRR, almost all the diesel in CA states is B5 or so.

For the newbies, TDIWyse and Pierre have been arguing this stuff for years. Although I have to say I've learned a lot from their posts.

Where did you come up with this B5 theory for CA?