[marriedblonde]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

I absolutely agree with you Ant on all three points you make above - the BMW kit IS a great kit for the money and does offer big brake performance gains over the stock BMW kit, especially on models 330 and below. For the 335, the greatest improvement is in repeatability and resistance of heat-induced fade especially when braking from high speeds. To maximise this performance gain, you do need to consider using Pagid pads and Goodridge hoses as you have said - all this combined will be a great setup for fast road use for 99.9% of all drivers.

You pose the question how AP Racing, Brembo and PFC can justify a cost three, or even more, times the cost of the BMW BBK. However, you must admit that the products from AP and Brembo (the higher end items) are designed for much more demanding and rigorous use - they are not systems really for the road, but rather for the track. In this respect, their durability and serviceability will be greater than the BMW BBK. Just consider the fact that APs have separate bell housings for instance, the discs are far bigger at 355x32mm, and the heat-resistance that much higher.

This is not in disrespect to the BMW system - they are not priced in the same performance category at all. BMW BBK is not competing with the big AP or Brembo setups - BMW want a slice of the upgrade market, but at the retail/commercial consumer end of the market rather than the professional.

Having had one of the first ever sets on a 335, I can wholeheartedly recommend the BMW BBK as a performance upgrade for the road and occasional track use. It is fantastic value, especially at the prices that speedreligion.net have obtained for the E90post forum members

Oh, and they do look brilliant

Just to add the later 330i's come with the same brakes as the 335's...

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by marriedblonde

Just to add the later 330i's come with the same brakes as the 335's...

That's correct - all 330i/d LCI (facelift) cars use the same brakes as the 335i/d

[creepy coupe]

I can recommend them, I've got them on the 135 and they feel very progressive under hard usage, they're a bit grabby at very low speed and take a bit of getting used to..

[Ant397]

Carlos: Please dont get mislead by the fact that the discs are smaller than your 335's... thats not the point and they do offer an increase in performance and longevity under hard use.

I feel that BMW have hit the nail on the head with this kit as they have aimed it at 90% of customers that would buy an uprated BBK... I feel that the majority of customers would not benefit from the increased cost of AP Racing or the like brakes as this kit will easily cope with what 90% of people will want from it.

So, at this price, other brake manufacturers will see a massive shortfall in E87 - E90/3 brake kits as BMW's looks better (even if in practise they're not built as good or designed to be as good) as price plays a major part and personally, I think they look better than Brembo/AP callipers with their extra sticky out parts and the fact that they're yellow... you can't beat yellow callipers!

Having said this, we have them on our road cars, but I would not opt for BMW Performance Brakes on one of our race cars...

Horses for courses!

[marriedblonde]

Ant,

You mentioned other pad options for the BBK from PAGID. Are they low dust pads? IF so what are my options and what's the cost/availability? Happy to PM if you would rather not mention prices in here.

Thanks,

J.

[dxb335d]

SO how many mm smaller are they, and thanks for a detailed response Ant.

[Ant397]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

SO how many mm smaller are they, and thanks for a detailed response Ant.

As it says earlier on in the thread, 10mm smaller in diameter, so 5 mm each side or 1/4". But bigger discs to not mean bigger pads Carlos and its the pad that does the stopping.

I do not think anyone could tell a 10mm larger disc back to back with the same pad and calliper, the extra torque generated 5mm further from the centre of the hub isn't all that much.

Larger discs are preferential to have a larger rotational speed at the circumference, thus aiding better cooling and avoiding warp...

LARGER DISCS ARE NOT WHAT STOPS YOUR CAR CARLOS...

Sorry, but I just know all you read was smaller and dismissed them, there is more to it mate.

[dxb335d]

I know that Ant, I know that very well. But as a performance upgrade most people go for larger discs and calipers and upgraded padss

I now see why BMW say they dont make any for the 335's at the moment. Maybe they will be bringing out larger ones in the not to distant future?

[Ant397]

Larger discs arent everything and the BMW Performance brakes are still a performance upgrade over standard brakes on a 335, even with smaller discs Carlos.

[dxb335d]

Yes maybe so. But i have never heard of anyone upgrading their brakes but only to fit slightly smaller discs.

I think bmw will bring out a big brake kit for the 335.

[dxb335d]

Ant could you organise a test with stock and bbk and publish the results.

Braking times and distance travelled from 30mph 50 and 70mph ?

[xenon]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Yes maybe so. But i have never heard of anyone upgrading their brakes but only to fit slightly smaller discs.

Not normally but the contact area is significantly larger and the discs are cross-drilled, so still an overall improvement.

[dxb335d]

this is why i think bmw have not advertised these for the 335. Cathc my drift.

[Mark II]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

this is why i think bmw have not advertised these for the 335. Cathc my drift.

Sorry to jump in Carl but I think you may be attributing the nominal difference in disk size between the stock 335 disk and the BBK disk with too much importance and there are other more important factors involved.

Granted, the 335 does have a slightly larger disk but the stock sliding, single piston caliper, is nowhere near as mechanically efficient as the fixed, six piston caliper in the BMW (actually Brembo) BBK.

Take two cars: one with the stock sliding piston caliper (single piston) standard pads and the other with the fixed caliper (six piston) larger pads and whatever force you exert on the brake pedal will equal a larger effective braking force in the car fitted with the BBK. If you add braided hoses to the BBK as well then mechanical efficiency will be increased still further, as less of the applied force is being lost in the system.

Here's another way to think about it: If I had a 21" cycle wheel (big disk) and asked you to stop it spinning with just finger pressure on the rim you'd struggle, if I then asked you to stop a 20" cycle wheel (slightly smaller disk) with your entire hand on the rim - crude analogy but I think you see what I mean. The difference in rim/disk diameter is marginal when considered against the force clamping it

The BMW BBK represents great value against other kits and with the right pads can easily offer what most drivers will ever need for road or track days (although the full AP Formula or Brembo GT kit is better if you're going for outright race spec and need every last second).

IMHO the standard BMW brakes never felt 'right' and they certainly didn't inspire confidence when pressing on like some brakes do but now (since the BBK/hoses have been fitted) the brakes finally feel solid and strong, they're no longer the weakest link in the performance chain. I think you'd find the BBK to be an improvement.

Just my tuppence

[dxb335d]

Mark, i dont think your catching my drift either,

If BMW were to bring out a performance upgrade for a 335, it would most definately have larger discs than stock.

Im not saying the stock set-up is better than bbk.

I know what difference Calipers and pads and discs can have to the braking performance of a car.

I want better brakes.

I have not found an issue with stock brakes though, not even on track. Ask anyone who was at Snett, i wasnt hanging around.

I did wear them right through granted, but that was 2 track days.

[Mark II]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Mark, i dont think your catching my drift either

Sorry Carl,

Maybe I misinterpreted the thrust of your argument, it just seemed (to me) to be centered predominantly on the diameter of the disk, hence my comments

As Anthony knows I was researching the BBK for a long time and when BMW first changed their mind about offering it, then changed their mind about offering the rear kit I did start looking to spend the extra on a full AP or Brembo setup - my point above was that for right now the current BBK offers a level of mechanical efficiency and improved feel that IMO is not available with the standard set-up (even if the standard setup of the 335 has a slightly larger disk).

I think you're right though - if BMW do bring out a 335 specific kit then it probably will have a larger disk and that would offer some improvement over the current BBK but I wouldn't expect it to make such a significant night and day difference as the change from the stock set-up to the BBK - nevertheless I understand you wanting to wait to see what BMW offer.

BTW: I didn't mean to offend you with my comments (hope I haven't) and I'm sure you're not slow either - your reputation precedes you on that score

Like I said, just my tuppence

[dxb335d]

No mate no offence taken.

I still would like to see a comparison test with stock 335 brakes and bbk.

[Mark II]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

No mate no offence taken.

Good

Originally Posted by dxb335d

I still would like to see a comparison test with stock 335 brakes and bbk.

Maybe Anthony can oblige with a 335 before and after test.

Failing that we'll have to do a Top Gear stylee back-to-back 70mph and throw out the anchors test

[dxb335d]

Id be up for that LOL.

[willhollin]

Mark II are you coming to one of the meets next year, would love to see your motor?

[marriedblonde]

It wouldn't make sense for BMW to bring out a BBK for the 335's though, not cost effective. The BBK uses the calipers from a current production model...

[dxb335d]

Bmw could do exactly the same and would be cost effective. M3 brakes anyone...?