[vwong]

Originally Posted by J Tyler

Vincent -- those are really quick times for bone-stock cars, well done.

Thanks, Jeff. You did a smoking lap in HP Autowerks car. Awesome lap. I've gotta ride with you next time. Hope to see ya next year at the RTA's.

[just4kickz]

nice writeup. is the s4 square or staggered?

[vwong]

Square, 255/35/19.

[kugasman]

Originally Posted by Hit_Apex

I'm still in awe that the 335i is the new S4 marketing target. I've always considered S4 an M3 peer - at least on the street with slight performance advantage going to the M. Why have the standards been lowered?

I know this topic has been beaten to death on the audi and bmw message boards, but it is an interesting question.

I used to be on the audi boards and there was a LOT of debate about which car the new S4 would compete with. It is obviously the 335 now. Part of the problem IMHO is that BMW made the 335 too close (not a bad thing really ) performance wise with the M3. The 335 is also very tunable as we know. This forced audi to make a decision about price/competition for the S4 which I think is a good thing. The same thing happened with the B5 S4 coming out on the E36 M3. Let's hope Audi and BMW can both continue to up the ante with the new M3 and a new RS4.

[Schumacher]

Originally Posted by Hit_Apex

I'm still in awe that the 335i is the new S4 marketing target. I've always considered S4 an M3 peer - at least on the street with slight performance advantage going to the M. Why have the standards been lowered?

Audi didn't want the RS4 to have it's own segment. Plus, you have to admit that the S designetion sounds like something special when confronted with something mundane like 3XXi.

[chemgeek]

I agree with some, I always thought the S4 was supposed to be competition with the M3, just a cheaper option. Sort of trying to attract buyers that couldn't quite afford the $70,000 M3. When I was buying my most recent car, I was torn between another 335 (my previous was a lemon) and the S4. Equally equipped, the cars are not really even in the same price bracket. The S4 was priced at about $62,000 (had a $2,000 mark-up at the time) with 6.9% APR (that was high and is similar to the APR on an M3) on a buy. A comparable 335 (missing some of the S4 features of course) was only about $51,000 with 3.9% APR. So, to me, the S4 is slotted between the 335 and the M3 in price. I think in performance, it is slotted in the same place. I just had the BMW power kit installed and I realize the difference is not going to be all that significant, but I would be curious to see how the $51,000 + $2,300 kit compares to the $60,000+ S4. Both are awesome cars in my opinion, and I'd be more than happy to drive either one.

[Javi335]

Well, Audi's "S" are better chasis, dont forget 335i is only a "normal" BMW, with powerfull engine, but not devepoled for race at all ...

.... .....

......

... FFFFFFFFffffffffffu!!!!

[S4to335]

Originally Posted by just4kickz

nice writeup. is the s4 square or staggered?

All audi quattro's have a square set up.

[digi]

I'm sorry but this has got to count for something...

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...p_2009-feature

Go to the bottom right hand side of page and open "lightning lap historic results 2006-2009" under downloads section. There you will find the lap times of the s4 and 335. Yes, I do know that there are many more variables than the op with main one being done a year apart. However, the m3 was very close to its previous time and such, credits even the slightest consistency in data. And we can also safely assume that this track exploits most areas of a cars dynamics, from outright power to handling agility. This also solidifies audi's intention, if not recognized already, of the s4's target segment in relation to bmw.

I'm not here to start any type of controversy, but just to tell another side of the story. I wish I had both cars myself to do a direct comparison as well(I am strongly considering swapping out for the s4 very soon). The way I see it, both are amazing cars with very little leverage room over the other.

[sworks335i]

I see this as a very good arguement. Must be lucky to be able to own both cars but it is clear that the S4 is meant to match up against the 335i. One thing to look at is the power amounts. The new 335is is really going to be the match up between both vehicles. Even though the C&D lap times are pretty much dead equal, once the 335is comes with with the same amount of power as the S4 I would bet that the 335i will take it. I would say a better test would really be to get the performance kit for your 335i and then do a track day. That puts them both on the same power field even though I take it your S4 as the rear diff? I am still going to stick with the BMW even though it lost on that day.....

[vwong]

Originally Posted by sworks335i

I see this as a very good arguement. Must be lucky to be able to own both cars but it is clear that the S4 is meant to match up against the 335i. One thing to look at is the power amounts. The new 335is is really going to be the match up between both vehicles. Even though the C&D lap times are pretty much dead equal, once the 335is comes with with the same amount of power as the S4 I would bet that the 335i will take it. I would say a better test would really be to get the performance kit for your 335i and then do a track day. That puts them both on the same power field even though I take it your S4 as the rear diff? I am still going to stick with the BMW even though it lost on that day.....

If I did that, then it wouldn't be "stock vs. stock", would it?

[chemgeek]

Originally Posted by vwong

If I did that, then it wouldn't be "stock vs. stock", would it?

Stock versus stock is about an $8,000 difference (on marketable cars package wise) at least when I was looking, and that doesn't account for the much higher interest rates and/or mark-ups on the S4. Even with the Power kit, my 335 was significantly cheaper than an S4. Just from driving the 335 stock then the same car with power kit and an S4 stock, a 335 with power kit very well might beat out the S4. The car is a different beast with the kit installed, beyond just the increased torque and horse power BMW lists, it pulls like a freight train.

[vwong]

Originally Posted by chemgeek

Stock versus stock is about an $8,000 difference (on marketable cars package wise) at least when I was looking at that doesn't account for the much higher interest rates and/or mark-ups on the S4. Even with the Power kit, my 335 was significantly cheaper than an S4.

Then you didn't put enough effort into looking. My cars came in approx. $2,000 difference in MSRP. And my dealer didn't add any mark-up on my S4.

BTW, was I comparing prices here? Last I checked, I was comparing performance on the track in the original post.

[chemgeek]

Originally Posted by vwong

Then you didn't put enough effort into looking. My cars came in approx. $2,000 difference in MSRP. And my dealer didn't add any mark-up on my S4.

BTW, was I comparing prices here? Last I checked, I was comparing performance on the track in the original post.

You can't compare them without comparing price, what's the point? I agree, stock, the S4 is likely the faster car, but you have to factor in everything, IMO. I just built two pretty equivalent cars on carsdirect.com, 335 sedan $53,605 and S4 $59,605. That 335 is pretty loaded, it has just about everything but the sonar cruise control (M-sport, active steering, etc..). Add $2,300 to the 335 price to add the Power kit, you are still $3,600 under the S4, and you have not even talked interest rate (6.9% when I was looking in October, not sure what it is now, that would add another few thousand to the price).

[marcel b]

here in Switzerland a S5 is 15% (15k $) more expensive then a equally equipped 335i. For that you can buy a power kit, performance exhaust, Quaiffe and still have a lot of money left and leave the S5 clear behind you

[vwong]

Originally Posted by chemgeek

You can't compare them without comparing price, what's the point?

Why can't I? I'm not trying to decide which car to buy. I ALREADY HAVE BOTH!!! The topic of price was history for me. I wasn't writing a GENERAL comparison between the 2 cars. I was strictly comparing on track performance. If you want to compare prices, please start your own post.

[chemgeek]

Originally Posted by vwong

Why can't I? I'm not trying to decide which car to buy. I ALREADY HAVE BOTH!!! The topic of price was history for me. I wasn't writing a GENERAL comparison between the 2 cars. I was strictly comparing on track performance. If you want to compare prices, please start your own post.

You replied to me. Are you implying that I am jacking your thread? I was originally commenting on the price bracketing of BMW and Audi's mid range cars in response to a couple of other posters, which to me seems quite relevant in a comparison of any two cars. If you owned an S4 and a Veyron, and you tracked the two, would price then be relevant in the discussion? Would a comment about tires not necessarily installed on one of the two cars you tracked be inappropriate as well? I am glad you had the money to buy both a 335 and an S4, but I don't understand why that prevents the rest of us from discussing the cars' pricing, especially the two cars you already own.

I apologize for jacking your thread.

[sworks335i]

Originally Posted by vwong

If I did that, then it wouldn't be "stock vs. stock", would it?

You are correct, it would not be stock vs stock. But it would be two "equally" powered cars with two different layouts going at it. I will admit that the issue here is everyone's caught up on the S designation of the A4. Yes, Audi dropped the 3.2 out of their line up, granted my old V70R left one of those but technically in the "Lineup" that would be the comparo. I guess the next true fight will be with the 335iS but then again its only a coupe and the S5 really is not that great of a car. 5th gear already put those two on a tack and the 335i stock vs stock spanked it, with the lesser power.

I liked your write up, on the performance track day comparo. It was a great write up and interesting as we always wonder which is best. I just never like it when it is not a fair fight. But I understand what your point to the post was. I agree that this is not a price discussion as well.

I guess when it comes to price it matters as to which is a better car. Which car do you feel like is better built? Which car have you had less issues with? Both good questions for a car that is a DD and put on the track.

[vwong]

Originally Posted by sworks335i

Which car do you feel like is better built? Which car have you had less issues with? Both good questions for a car that is a DD and put on the track.

Both cars are actually built pretty solidly, IMO. No major issue other than a minor rattle in the lower seat belt mount in the S4. It's now fixed and the rattle is gone. The steering wheel was a tad off center in the S4, but I fixed it. I'm now dealing with a warning on the left side tail light out in the 335i, and I just found out that there is a TSB on it.

[aisthetes]

Interesting comparison. I was curious if Audi had neutered the new S4, but the lap times you and the mags are getting are impressive. It's obviously the real deal.

Now you have to decide which to bring to the next CCA auto-x!

-Doug

[swartzentruber]

Nice review. Having known track times is pretty useful, as ultimately that's really a good test of the better car. Unfortunately, your review does continue the trend of comparing the 335i (RWD) to the S4. I'd really love to see a 335xi to S4 comparo, but I've seen basically zero English comparisons (I think some German magazines did). The 335xi is generally "disqualified" because of the lack of a sport suspension, but based on your comments (and others I've seen) it seems the 335i suffers from some oversteer, so I'm not sure it's a much better comparison to the S4. A 335xis w/ sport suspension would make a really interesting S4 competitor, not that BMW will likely make one.

[vwong]

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

Unfortunately, your review does continue the trend of comparing the 335i (RWD) to the S4. I'd really love to see a 335xi to S4 comparo, but I've seen basically zero English comparisons (I think some German magazines did).

It's just my opinion, I think BMW is known for their RWD platforms, and Audi is known for their quattro. Therefore, I didn't even consider the xi when I ordered my 335i. Similarly back in 2006, I didn't even consider the FWD when I got my B7 A4 2.0T quattro.