[JLausch]

Originally Posted by MenTul

As a former Saab owner, Saab is no longer the manufacturer of innovative groundbreaking cars it once was.

Saab used to be the leader in turbocharged performance cars. In the 21st century, performance engines start at 300hp, not 220.

Saabs used to be hatchbacks with enormous interiors. Now they are just badge engineered vauxhall sedans.

Saabs also used to represent good value. Is there anyone on this forum that truly believes a 93 aero is competitive with a 328 at even money?

RIP Saab. We knew you well....

Possibly my favorite Saab of all the ones i owned, i had a Tally Red spg, now i drive a '91 9k Turbo for my DD (330k miles and still trucking along, original motor and 1 turbo rebuild). I hope Saab goes back to the way things were like you were saying. I don't expect a car superior to my 335, but a comfy solid all weather cruiser is what i look for in my Saabs.

There are also some theories floating around the webs that someday BMW will either own completly or have a stake in Saab in the future beyond tech sharing.... interesting to say the least.

[MrHarris]

Never was a fan of Saab because of their boring designs but they are heading in the right direction going with a BMW power plant.

[jmsent]

Originally Posted by MenTul

As a former Saab owner, Saab is no longer the manufacturer of innovative groundbreaking cars it once was.

Saab used to be the leader in turbocharged performance cars. In the 21st century, performance engines start at 300hp, not 220.

Saabs used to be hatchbacks with enormous interiors. Now they are just badge engineered vauxhall sedans.

Saabs also used to represent good value. Is there anyone on this forum that truly believes a 93 aero is competitive with a 328 at even money?

RIP Saab. We knew you well....

Gotta agree with you on the old Saabs in terms of utility, safety, seats, etc. But the pre GM cars sucked in many ways too. Old fashioned electrical systems, interiors full of rattles, major turbo lag, high maintenance costs, etc. I went from a Honda Accord to a Saab 900 turbo. I was appalled at the crudeness of the Saab. Hopefully Spyker will find a way to return the character to these cars while improving the quality. Otherwise, they're finished.

[chemgeek]

Well, Saab already used the "born from jets campaign" claiming to be the only auto manufacturer to have developed airplane engines. Then, they backtracked and specified, "we're the only car company to have developed jet engines." Might as well use a BMW engine, they already tried to claim something they weren't.

[OSK77]

I digress a little but speaking of 3 series exclusivity, BMW produces 18 variants of the 3 series in various markets (according to Jeremy Cato of Car Business/Globe & Mail journalist in a recent interview). Lending engine technology to others is something BMW is acutely experienced with - I fondly recall the BMW sourced 4.4 L V8 power plant in the 2002 to 2005 Range Rover's.

And speaking of partnerships, check out this article - mind boggling to say the least...

BMW to save billions by 2012, with the help of Mercedes-Benz

[Schm]

Originally Posted by OSK77

I digress a little but speaking of 3 series exclusivity, BMW produces 18 variants of the 3 series in various markets (according to Jeremy Cato of Car Business/Globe & Mail journalist in a recent interview). Lending engine technology to others is something BMW is acutely experienced with - I fondly recall the BMW sourced 4.4 L V8 power plant in the 2002 to 2005 Range Rover's.

And speaking of partnerships, check out this article - mind boggling to say the least...

BMW to save billions by 2012, with the help of Mercedes-Benz

We've heard talks about tech-sharing for years, it's about time they've finally gotten around to it. That article is interesting, but they really were vague about exactly what is being shared. I feel like BMW/MB are probably being pretty tight-lipped about it. If you follow the auto industry at all (Which being on e90post probably means yes) Carlos Ghosn, current CEO of Nissan-Renault and all around genius businessman, is one of the strongest advocates of tech-partnerships and consolidation in the industry. With costs increasing around the world, companies absolutely must find new ways to cut costs (And in the end beat the silent elephant in the room- also known as VAG-Volkswagen Auto Group.)

[MenTul]

Most here has focused on the BMW technology sharing, engine sourcing.
Ignoring the fact that of all the engines BMW produces, Bloomberg Saab wants one with only 220hp.

Is Saab trying to position themselves as a premium niche brand as they have in the past or defining some new obscure position in the market?

If I want a comfortable performance styled FWD sedan, I'd look at Maxima before a Saab 93. It'd be cheaper, have a 290hp motor, and be serviceable by the local knuckledragger.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by southlight

IIRC, that was 60% of 1-series drivers. I hope the percentage is a bit less among all BMW drivers.


Best regards,
south

I think that's some major BS south. I know BMW said that, but it sounds to me like they're trying to excuse doing some inexcusable, i.e. introduce FWD (or Wrong Wheel Drive) cars under the BMW brand.

Even in Europe, where car culture is depressingly low, just about every single person knows that the 1 series is RWD. They know because all their friends tell them it's a "widow's car" and that in rain they can suddenly spin out.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Schm

With costs increasing around the world, companies absolutely must find new ways to cut costs (And in the end beat the silent elephant in the room- also known as VAG-Volkswagen Auto Group.)

Yeah right, with the insane prostitution VAG does, it is IMPOSSIBLE to beat them. Seriously, GM/Ford are in diapers compared to the rebadging BS VAG is into.

With all those resorces you'd think they can take out an RS5 that's better than a 3 year old M3...

[USC2000]

Originally Posted by Technic

Lmao!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by MenTul

Most here has focused on the BMW technology sharing, engine sourcing.
Ignoring the fact that of all the engines BMW produces, Saab wants one with only 220hp.

Is Saab trying to position themselves as a premium niche brand as they have in the past or defining some new obscure position in the market?

Saab already has higher output engines available, namely the GM 2.8L "High Feature" LP1 V6. I suspect that, for packaging reasons, they plan to keep using V6 engines rather than switching to BMW I6 engines - at least in the near term. Its true that Volvo has their transverse I6, but platforms must be designed with this consideration from the start. Perhaps somday Saab will switch to the I6, but perhaps not.

So, the 220hp BMW turbo I4 will most surely just be to replace the current GM EcoTec I4. BMW will have a 250hp version available at launch also, so maybe Saab will elect to use that eventually as well.

[MenTul]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Saab already has higher output engines available, namely the GM 2.8L "High Feature" LP1 V6. I suspect that, for packaging reasons, they plan to keep using V6 engines rather than switching to BMW I6 engines - at least in the near term. Its true that Volvo has their transverse I6, but platforms must be designed with this consideration from the start. Perhaps somday Saab will switch to the I6, but perhaps not.

So, the 220hp BMW turbo I4 will most surely just be to replace the current GM EcoTec I4. BMW will have a 250hp version available at launch also, so maybe Saab will elect to use that eventually as well.

Can you confirm the motor in question is a 222hp I4 turbo? Not mentioned in OP.

Without GM ownership, Spyker is free to source engines elsewhere for Saab. Spyker uses Audi motors in their cars so good news that BMW is edging out VAG for the account.

Again, replacing a 210hp I4 turbo with a 222hp BMW motor is no great advance in performance. The 2.0L engine in an EVO puts out 291hp.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by MenTul

Can you confirm the motor in question is a 222hp I4 turbo? Not mentioned in OP.

No, but it specifically says the motor will be a new one that BMW is currently developing and has not used in any cars. The only new gasoline engine BMW is developing right now in the 200hp category is the turbocharged I4.

I happily would wager a month's car payment that it will be the turbo 4. I am extremely confident I am correct here. For what that's worth.

Again, replacing a 210hp I4 turbo with a 222hp BMW motor is no great advance in performance. The 2.0L engine in an EVO puts out 291hp.

Saab uses EcoTec I4 turbo's making as much as 240hp today. Just FYI.

That said, they offer a range of turbo fours starting as low as 150hp. It could easily be the case that the BMW motor will offer the same or better efficiency and cleaner operation as these lesser offerings while making more power.

Also, as I said, they have the GM V6 turbo as well. They probably prefer a higher displacement lower pressure motor for their near-300hp applications. Hence they'll stick with the V6 in these cases for now, rather than pursuing an I4 like Mitsubishi or the new Hyundai motor.

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by chemgeek

Well, Saab already used the "born from jets campaign" claiming to be the only auto manufacturer to have developed airplane engines. Then, they backtracked and specified, "we're the only car company to have developed jet engines." Might as well use a BMW engine, they already tried to claim something they weren't.

If their claim is true....i"ll get a Saab with AT-4 anti-tank weapon...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAAB

[MenTul]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I happily would wager a month's car payment that it will be the turbo 4. I am extremely confident I am correct here. For what that's worth.

OK. I'm game. If you are wrong, you'll pay me a month's payment for your M3. And if you are right, you'll pay me a month's depreciation on my fully paid for 3 series.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Saab uses EcoTec I4 turbo's making as much as 240hp today. Just FYI.

The GM EcoTec LNF motor makes 260hp.
The engine in a 2010 9-3 makes 210hp (Saab EcoTec).
The engine in a 2010 9-5 makes 300hp (GM V6 turbo)/
Just FYI.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Also, as I said, they have the GM V6 turbo as well. They probably prefer a higher displacement lower pressure motor for their near-300hp applications. Hence they'll stick with the V6 in these cases for now, rather than pursuing an I4 like Mitsubishi or the new Hyundai motor.

The OP states BMW engine to be used in Saab 9-3 & 9-5. So 9-5 will be slower.

My opinion is that a BMW engine transplant alone is a dubious strategy for making Saabs any more desireable for purchase. At a minimum they should go for 9-3 with 250hp, AWD, dual clutch tranny, bring back hatchback body, drag the interior through Ikea's leather section and price it under 35k.

Who knows what the strategy for Saab is from Spyker? After all Spyker produces monstrosities like this:

[datbimmerdoe]

lol

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by MenTul

OK. I'm game. If you are wrong, you'll pay me a month's payment for your M3. And if you are right, you'll pay me a month's depreciation on my fully paid for 3 series.

Or we can just average the two. I'll guess you paid around $500 before it was paid off and mine is about $800, so the average is $650. Deal?

The engine in a 2010 9-3 makes 210hp (Saab EcoTec).

No, it depends on the market. Max is 237hp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_9-...B15.5D.5B16.5D

The engine in a 2010 9-5 makes 300hp (GM V6 turbo)
Just FYI.

Yep. Like I said, they'll surely keep the V6 around as well for both the 9-5 and 9-3.

The OP states BMW engine to be used in Saab 9-3 & 9-5. So 9-5 will be slower.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_9-5#Engines_3

220hp EcotTec

My opinion is that a BMW engine transplant alone is a dubious strategy for making Saabs any more desireable for purchase.

Could very well be. But then, as I said above, the goal may just be to increase efficiency and lower emissions. In short, they may feel the BMW engine offers a more promising future than the GM Ecotec.

[MenTul]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Or we can just average the two. I'll guess you paid around $500 before it was paid off and mine is about $800, so the average is $650. Deal?

No. I paid cash for all my cars and boats.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

No, it depends on the market. Max is 237hp.

OP quoted from Bloomberg. You and I live in the US. 210hp is it for a 9-3. Why should you even care about other markets? If we were in Europe, the new BMW engine would be irrelevant since it wasn't diesel. Even so, 222hp is less than 237hp.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Yep. Like I said, they'll surely keep the V6 around as well for both the 9-5 and 9-3.

Unlikely as it requires continuing with GM as a supplier. Currently 2.8L is used in Opel/Vauxhall Insignia (Buick Regal).

More likely BMW and VAG will compete to supply Spyker with engines. Audi is incumbent supplier to Spyker.

Then again I don't see Saab surviving another 10 years without major product changes.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by MenTul

No. I paid cash for all my cars and boats.

Well I paid cash for my beach house and Aston. Not the M3 though.

It's ok, no sweat about the bet, I understand the hesitation.

OP quoted from Bloomberg. You and I live in the US. 210hp is it for a 9-3. Why should you even care about other markets?

Well I care because I choose to keep abreast of the technology car companies use across the world. It's rather second nature to me. Often times European countries deliver new products and technology to the homeland before it hits stateside. I find it worthwhile to keep in tune with what's going on throughout the world.

But why I care is irrelevant, isn't it? The press release stated nothing about the markets, so I chose not to make an assumption that it applied only to the US. Thus, when I mentioned Saab uses EcoTec up to 240hp (well, 237hp, really) I was talking about the world over. I certainly never considered it would become such a stickling point that would generate such discussion. I was merely trying to lay out the facts.

If we were in Europe, the new BMW engine would be irrelevant since it wasn't diesel.

I'd have to disagree. They use both petrol and gasoline engines in European markets. Surely you are not suggesting that this BMW engine will not be used by Saab in Europe?

Even so, 222hp is less than 237hp.

Definitely, yes. That's why I suggested they may choose to use the higher output versions of the motor later. This initial offering could be just to replace some of the lower end motors for now. In fact, by the time it comes to market, Saab may well have plans in the works to use other BMW engines. It is two years away, after all.

Unlikely as it requires continuing with GM as a supplier. Currently 2.8L is used in Opel/Vauxhall Insignia (Buick Regal).

Not sure that's a bad thing in the interrim. 2012 is pretty close. Maybe they'll have all the GM engines replaced by then. But I don't think that's necessarily likely at this point. But, yes, I agree it could happen.

More likely BMW and VAG will compete to supply Spyker with engines. Audi is incumbent supplier to Spyker.

If they do go with VAG for V6 or other engines, I would be very curious to learn why they chose to use BMW's brand new turbo I4 rather than the VAG equivalent that has been around for years. But then maybe this just speaks to how good the new BMW 4 cyl engines are going to be.

Then again I don't see Saab surviving another 10 years without major product changes.

Could be. I wouldn't want to speculate. I would say that Saab probably has a lot of new product planned for later in this decade.

[MenTul]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The press release stated nothing about the markets, so I chose not to make an assumption that it applied only to the US.

OP quotes Bloomberg. Bloomberg is US.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

That's why I suggested they may choose to use the higher output versions of the motor later. This initial offering could be just to replace some of the lower end motors for now. In fact, by the time it comes to market, Saab may well have plans in the works to use other BMW engines. It is two years away, after all..

In OP, Spyker says "may" and "if negotiations are successful." This is not a commitment. This doesn't declare a strategy for "higher output versions of the motor later."

Originally Posted by mkoesel

If they do go with VAG for V6 or other engines, I would be very curious to learn why they chose to use BMW's brand new turbo I4 rather than the VAG equivalent that has been around for years. But then maybe this just speaks to how good the new BMW 4 cyl engines are going to be.

Per OP, Spyker is in negotiations. They haven't "chosen" anything yet. 222hp quote is from an unnamed source.

VAG is incumbent supplier to Spyker. Its just as likely this release is all about Spyker using BMW to grind VAG on price.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by MenTul

OP quotes Bloomberg. Bloomberg is US.

And again, that means absolutely nothing as far as what markets will apply with respect to this BMW deal. Certainly, these engines will be used worldwide, just like the current GM engines are. Similarly, if the source of the article were in Switzerland, we wouldn't be limiting the discussion only to what's available that country either.

Like I say, I had no idea this particular point would turn into such an ordeal. If I did I would have qualified my original statements about engine output and such. I wasn't trying to challenge your knowledge or embarrass you by correcting your statements. Again, just putting the facts on the table. I am typically thanked for doing that. It's foreign to me to have a discussion on a BMW forum wherein the source of the article is a huge point of debate. It's news. It's a global company. If they use these engines, they are going to use them throughout the world.

In OP, Spyker says "may" and "if negotiations are successful." This is not a commitment. This doesn't declare a strategy for "higher output versions of the motor later."

Per OP, Spyker is in negotiations. They haven't "chosen" anything yet. 222hp quote is from an unnamed source.

Right, yes, sure. It's just a discussion, this. We are merely adding our own speculation. Some healthy debate is great. No need to belabor the fact that the whole thing is based upon rumor. That's the case with most of the speculative articles that come through here. I consider it elementary when discussing articles such as this.

VAG is incumbent supplier to Spyker. Its just as likely this release is all about Spyker using BMW to grind VAG on price.

Maybe. Could be. I wouldn't want to speculate on that particular point. Perhaps when more information comes out the political aspects of the deal will be more apparent. Or perhaps not. Personally I am sticking with my opinion that Saab is planning to use BMW's upcoming turbocharged I4 engine to replace the GM Ecotec in at least some applications, and perhaps eventually all of them. Of that much, I remain all but certain. What happens with their other current engines - the GM V6 and Fiat diesels - who knows.

[fwmcb]

here is a copy of the SAAB news release on the subject from their website.

Source: Saab September 29, 2010
Saab Automobile and BMW enter agreement for supply of gasoline engines
Today, Saab Automobile and BMW announced an agreement for the supply of engines to be used in next-generation Saab vehicles. Under the purchase, supply and development agreement, BMW will supply Saab with 4-cylinder 1.6 liter turbocharged gasoline engines from 2012. The engines will be adapted to meet Saab’s specific requirements.
The contract was signed on Wednesday in Trollhättan, Sweden. Participating in the signing were Saab Automobile CEO Jan Åke Jonsson, Saab Automobile Chairman Victor Muller and Ian Robertson, Member of the Board of Management of BMW AG, responsible for Sales and Marketing.
Announcing the deal, Saab Automobile CEO Jan Åke Jonsson said: “It gives me great pleasure to confirm this exciting new relationship. BMW’s engines and their fuel savings innovations are widely regarded as a benchmark in the premium segment. We look forward to integrating this technology into our next-generation vehicles in a true Saab way.”
Victor Muller, Chairman of Saab Automobile, said: “This is a major step for Saab on our road to becoming a profitable independent premium car maker. In line with our strategy, we will continue to capitalize on our own engineering expertise while also working with the very best partners. Both parties are open to explore further opportunities as part of this relationship in the future.”
Ian Robertson, Executive Sales and Marketing Director of BMW, added: “We are continuing to expand our powertrain system sales business worldwide as planned as part of our Strategy Number ONE. Today’s agreement marks another important milestone along this route. We are delighted to support Saab with our engine expertise. Our engines have a clear lead over the competition when it comes to fuel consumption, emissions and performance.”