[CALWATERBOY]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

Nitrous....EGT's are through the roof generally. Its not a fuel. As mentioned before its a power adder.

High EGT kills the deal.

But what about Snow's water/meth/NOS system?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY

High EGT kills the deal.

But what about Snow's waater/meth/NOS system?

Meth lowers EGT.

[CALWATERBOY]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

Meth lowers EGT.

Finding freezing point depression: Methanol > Ethanol > Isopropanol

Alcohols originally being for antifreeze in aircraft water injection, Meth's the best choice, no other criteria:

50/50 methanol/water = -65°F freezing point
50/50 ethanol/water = -25°F freezing point
50/50 isopropanol/water = -05°F freezing point

Thus, when enough isopopanol is added to ensure a very low freezing point, isopropanol's LEL - Lower Explosive Limit, the level above which a substance will combust - is reached after injection and the fuel mix is very over-rich unless there's an O2 sensor to correct fuel flow.



ATF restriction on ethanol?

Do we need alcohol in a car? Would pure water work in warmer months?
__________________________________

Edit: From [Cick Here - go to end of text]:

**Tuning Tip** Since alcohol is a fuel, when using mixes with higher percentages of alcohol, expect air/fuel ratio to richen up more then when used with mixes containing lesser percentages of alcohol with greater percentages of water. For this reason, many user’s will actually prefer using a much lower percentage of water/alcohol or 100% water. Depending on the application this can be just as effective while not affecting the air/fuel ratio as greatly as does mixes with greater percentages of alcohol. We highly recommend the use of a wide band o2 system to monitor air/fuel ratio and aid in tuning your engine.

Closing in on this issue! Pure water = LOW cost of operation.
.

[CALWATERBOY]

You chemists....what is the oil used, 1% in some alcohol/water mixes as a corrosion inhibitor?

[CALWATERBOY]

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY

Pure water = LOW cost of operation.
.

This is true, but what about an additive to clean intake valves & keep 'em clean?

Techron leaps to mind; Seafoam. Would enough solublize with a modest ammt of alcohol to do the job?

[Joshboody]

since everyone seems to be getting semi-technical here, I'm curious about Meth versus water's cooling ability. I have noticed that larger concentration of Meth definitely cools better as far as IAT's read at the throttle body. My thought is that Meth evaporates faster and thus more cooling before the TMAP sensor. But once water fully evaporates it should have better cooling properties CORRECT? An additional thought is that potentially some of the water may not fully evaporate until compression, combustion.

Any thoughts on this?

[CALWATERBOY]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

since everyone seems to be getting semi-technical here, I'm curious about Meth versus water's cooling ability. I have noticed that larger concentration of Meth definitely cools better as far as IAT's read at the throttle body. My thought is that Meth evaporates faster and thus more cooling before the TMAP sensor. But once water fully evaporates it should have better cooling properties CORRECT? An additional thought is that potentially some of the water may not fully evaporate until compression, combustion.

Any thoughts on this?

Correct. Water's heat of vaporization little less than 10% more than meth's.

Have yet to see why meth's really needed, except as antifreeze.

Also, unevaporated water entering the cylinder turns to steam when fuel combusts, yielding a satisfying torque boost, volume of steam [gas] per lb H2O being much larger than volume of water [liquid] @ N54 cylinder temp/press.

Alcohol not so much as it evaporates to a larger extent before entering the cylinder.

Terry....Shiv....Coolng Mist Guys....what say you?
.

[max]

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY

Correct. Water's heat of vaporization little less than 10% more than meth's.
Have yet to see why meth's really needed, except as antifreeze.
Also, unevaporated water entering the cylinder turns to steam when fuel combusts, yielding a satisfying torque boost, volume of steam [gas] per lb H2O being much larger than volume of water [liquid] @ N54 cylinder temp/press.

Alcohol not so much as it evaporates to a larger extent before entering the cylinder.
Terry....Shiv....Coolng Mist Guys....what say you?
.

Your are correct, water injection has been around in boosted engines for at least 75 years. Alcohol (either methanol or ethanol) was only added as to prevent freezing, often required at high altitudes in planes.

Here's some info gleaned from the aquamist site:
Note latent heat of vaporization differences -
Latent heat value (kiloJoules per kiloGram) by mass:
Water ... 2256kJ/kg
Methanol ... 1109kJ/kg
Ethanol ... 904kJ/kg
Isopropyl ... 665kJ/kg
(Gasoline) ... 350kJ/kg

The latent heat is what helps lower peak combustion temps and consequently the EGT.... this helps prevent knock and allows higher boost to be run.
Assuming you are already at ~ 12 to 1 AFR you don't need the methanol for it's fuel benefit. However, flow enough extra methanol and it will help prevent knock simply due to it's higher octane.
Many have found that a combination of methanol and water together have a synergistic effect on getting the most HP out of their engines and this "tuning" is up to each individual and the engine in their car.
Clear as mud yet?

[CALWATERBOY]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

since everyone seems to be getting semi-technical here, I'm curious about Meth versus water's cooling ability. I have noticed that larger concentration of Meth definitely cools better as far as IAT's read at the throttle body. My thought is that Meth evaporates faster and thus more cooling before the TMAP sensor. But once water fully evaporates it should have better cooling properties CORRECT? An additional thought is that potentially some of the water may not fully evaporate until compression, combustion.

Any thoughts on this?

OK, meth use results in denser air to the cylinders, but how significantly? Can find nothing on that....yikes.

[CALWATERBOY]

Originally Posted by max

Assuming you are already at ~ 12 to 1 AFR you don't need the methanol for it's fuel benefit. However, flow enough extra methanol and it will help prevent knock simply due to it's higher octane.

Many have found that a combination of methanol and water together have a synergistic effect on getting the most HP out of their engines and this "tuning" is up to each individual and the engine in their car.

Clear as mud yet?

Actually very clear, but can't find data to support!

There's just gotta be engineering standards somewhere.

But where? Help me! Aieeeeeeeee!

[Magic-Man]

Originally Posted by R1000K3

I run about 20 PSI on meth and the car moves reasonable well. This in combination with the extra risks involved with N2O, and the Procede still not supporting it, I've decided to cancel the N2O plans. The system will be removed from the car.

When installed properly w/the right safety equipment, nitrous is no more risky than any other power adder.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY

Correct. Water's heat of vaporization little less than 10% more than meth's.

Have yet to see why meth's really needed, except as antifreeze.

Also, unevaporated water entering the cylinder turns to steam when fuel combusts, yielding a satisfying torque boost, volume of steam [gas] per lb H2O being much larger than volume of water [liquid] @ N54 cylinder temp/press.

Alcohol not so much as it evaporates to a larger extent before entering the cylinder.

Terry....Shiv....Coolng Mist Guys....what say you?
.

Dont forget meth is a fuel so it bumps up octane. Methanol is namely used for 2 reasons, insufficient octane and cooling. Others can also use it as a fueling bandaid to setups were stock fuel systems cant provide enough output.

[R1000K3]

Originally Posted by Magic-Man

When installed properly w/the right safety equipment, nitrous is no more risky than any other power adder.

It IS more risky, unless you use nitrous as a limited base tune with safety equipment on a stock engine and opt to refill the bottle for 100 dollars about every other minute when you use the car. This scenario does not apply for most 335 owners. If any.

The normal use for N2O on our car, and the majority of others cars too, is to increase the power level more than you can do with conventional tuning without draining the bank account. E.g. when you are not happy with 430 whp on a stage 3 car and want to enter the 550 whp domain, there are not many options. At this power level it should be obvious that risks has increased a lot for parts to grenade by one reason or another. All necessary N2O safety equipment, that also can fail, doesn't make it as safe as e.g. a turbo upgrade to the same power level. And the later has the huge advantage, apart from being less complex, to be available 24h day after day without costly refills.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by R1000K3

It IS more risky, unless you use nitrous as a limited base tune with safety equipment on a stock engine and opt to refill the bottle for 100 dollars about every other minute when you use the car. This scenario does not apply for most 335 owners. If any.

The normal use for N2O on our car, and the majority of others cars too, is to increase the power level more than you can do with conventional tuning without draining the bank account. E.g. when you are not happy with 430 whp on a stage 3 car and want to enter the 550 whp domain, there are not many options. At this power level it should be obvious that risks has increased a lot for parts to grenade by one reason or another. All necessary N2O safety equipment, that also can fail, doesn't make it as safe as e.g. a turbo upgrade to the same power level. And the later has the huge advantage, apart from being less complex, to be available 24h day after day without costly refills.

I agree with about everything you say. Moreso the fact that anyone looking to break 430WHP will be needing methanol as a fueling bandaid.

I dont recall if you had nitrous on your car or just contemplated it. At any rate I had a 25 shot on my previous car and it would last for quite sometime. Then again I wasnt daily driving with a 25 shot to the grocery store. However it did last a couple months. A 25 shot on this car is likely good for nearly another 50WHP. Considerable bump in power and even more so in torque.

I havnt really looked into the options of nitrous for this vehicle in particular because of the lack of safety controls. I'm not sure if things have changed.

Here in the states it cost about $50 to fill a 10 lb bottle.

[R1000K3]

It is tempting to run a sensible +50 whp shot like you did but I've decided to leave it since the usage is too limited. I've used a lot of nitrous in other cars I've owned but they needed it more (American V8's ) than the already well performing 335. I earlier hoped Vishnu would have provided N20 support by the Procede and it helped to ditch the N20 plan when this never happened. I don't blaim them for a second though since it is up to each person to solve the N2O support if it must be done.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by R1000K3

It is tempting to run a sensible +50 whp shot like you did but I've decided to leave it since the usage is too limited. I've used a lot of nitrous in other cars I've owned but they needed it more (American V8's ) than the already well performing 335. I earlier hoped Vishnu would have provided N20 support by the Procede and it helped to ditch the N20 plan when this never happened. I don't blaim them for a second though since it is up to each person to solve the N2O support if it must be done.

Agreed on all counts again.

[Magic-Man]

Originally Posted by R1000K3

It IS more risky, unless you use nitrous as a limited base tune with safety equipment on a stock engine and opt to refill the bottle for 100 dollars about every other minute when you use the car. This scenario does not apply for most 335 owners. If any.

Have you ever run nitrous? Based on your reply, I'd say no. @ $100 to fill a 10 lb bottle.

The normal use for N2O on our car, and the majority of others cars too, is to increase the power level more than you can do with conventional tuning without draining the bank account. E.g. when you are not happy with 430 whp on a stage 3 car and want to enter the 550 whp domain, there are not many options. At this power level it should be obvious that risks has increased a lot for parts to grenade by one reason or another.

Any added power on a junk or hurt motor will cause failure. Nitrous does not suddenly increase this magically. I've run juice just fine. Not one issue.

All necessary N2O safety equipment, that also can fail, doesn't make it as safe as e.g. a turbo upgrade to the same power level. And the later has the huge advantage, apart from being less complex, to be available 24h day after day without costly refills.

So a turbo can't fail?

[Magic-Man]

This...

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

A 25 shot on this car is likely good for nearly another 50WHP. Considerable bump in power and even more so in torque.

Then this.

I havnt really looked into the options of nitrous for this vehicle in particular because of the lack of safety controls. I'm not sure if things have changed.

Here in the states it cost about $50 to fill a 10 lb bottle.

Less than $50 here in my state.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Magic-Man

This...


Then this.




Less than $50 here in my state.

You know there is saying, location location location.

By my last quote I meant since there was no significant implementation via procede I decided against nitrous along with the fuel ceiling being a major factor.

On my last platform I had full control of a dry shot. Added Fuel, Decreased Ignition, and Lean cut.

[Magic-Man]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

You know there is saying, location location location.

By my last quote I meant since there was no significant implementation via procede I decided against nitrous along with the fuel ceiling being a major factor.

On my last platform I had full control of a dry shot. Added Fuel, Decreased Ignition, and Lean cut.

Don't run crazy large shots & you're fine. I didn't need fancy software or tunes to safely run juice on my cars.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Magic-Man

Don't run crazy large shots & you're fine. I didn't need fancy software or tunes to safely run juice on my cars.

You are right you dont NEED it, but some people prefer it.

[R1000K3]

Originally Posted by Magic-Man

Have you ever run nitrous? Based on your reply, I'd say no. @ $100 to fill a 10 lb bottle.

Any added power on a junk or hurt motor will cause failure. Nitrous does not suddenly increase this magically. I've run juice just fine. Not one issue.



So a turbo can't fail?

A refill costs 100 here though and I agree it makes a big difference if it cost about 50 bucks or a bit less. This would limit the cost to just 250 dollars per 15 minutes of N2O operation. Please keep in mind that upgraded turbos delivers good power anytime, without this extra cost, and the extra 1000 dollars per N2O hour vs. upgraded turbo power is not negligible.

How many bottles have you been using on the current setup and what is the power level with and w/o N2O? I understand you have no desire to add power to a junk or hurt engine, neither have I.

Turbos will fail at some point (unlike the N2O bottle...) but I don't get the point here to be honest. Did you remove the turbos when you installed a reliable N2O system to eliminate this problem?