[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

Ilma, yes my log would look like yours occasionally, but most fairly smooth and then back again after letting the car sit. I'll post my experiences with the new routing after I get some time with it.

Hey, what procede version and maps are you running? Your trims look great! I can't tune my negative trims out. Did you alter the tables at all? You are FBO with stock turbos right.

No not FBO...DCI and Intercooler only. Stock downpipes and exhaust.

I am running the 7-29 maps, but I leaned out the AF ratio just a wee bit.

When I did so I noticed the fuel tirms looked much better, so I guess the injectors are able to hit the leaner AF ratio much easier.

Just go into the AF table and change the numbers a little bit then see what your fuel trims look like. Just make sure you keep smooth and consistent transitions between cells. I think I split the difference between stock AF settings of 50 and the richened AF numbers under boost by 1/4 and applied that difference to the original value in each cell.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by NoQuarter

It seems like after mine goes a while with no meth use I start to get some air in the lines just before the nozzles.

Yup....me too. I am corresponding with Robert on this later today, but here is a picture I took this morning after two days of not using meth.

You can see about a one inch air gap in the main white hose that feeds the two nozzles just before going into the stainless steel T connection post pump.

I am thinking it might be coming into the line via the nozzles themselves as there would be air in the chargepipe that could get pulled up via the nozzles.

OR

It's getting in from the push fitting at the exit side of the pump. I'm not a big fan of the push fitting especially with such stiff tubing. I think there is a possibility it might not be making a good seal. Funny because all of the other connectors in the kit are high quality screw down compression connectors.

My argument would be that air always rises to the highest point in the line. That would be a long way to go if it was coming from the WW resovoir or the washer nozzles on the hood.

In any case, I am just speculating and will report back once Robert gets a chance to see my pics and respond.

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by Ilma

No not FBO...DCI and Intercooler only. Stock downpipes and exhaust.

I am running the 7-29 maps, but I leaned out the AF ratio just a wee bit.

When I did so I noticed the fuel tirms looked much better, so I guess the injectors are able to hit the leaner AF ratio much easier.

Just go into the AF table and change the numbers a little bit then see what your fuel trims look like. Just make sure you keep smooth and consistent transitions between cells. I think I split the difference between stock AF settings of 50 and the richened AF numbers under boost by 1/4 and applied that difference to the original value in each cell.

yeah, I've been playing with it... more so on the open loop map. I did make some drastic changes with minor results. I think much has to do with hardware differences... like fuel regulator. We are also dealing with fuel pressure instead of IDC, so each cell effects the other probably due to pressure not being able to instantly adjust... i think anyway.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

yeah, I've been playing with it... more so on the open loop map. I did make some drastic changes with minor results. I think much has to do with hardware differences... like fuel regulator. We are also dealing with fuel pressure instead of IDC, so each cell effects the other probably due to pressure not being able to instantly adjust... i think anyway.

Yah....I played with Open Loop map a bit too, but could not get consistent results on the trims for the reasons you mention.

So I just decided to adjust AF ratio map and it seems to be consistent and global. Probably lets those other variables take care of themselves.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Ilma

My argument would be that air always rises to the highest point in the line. That would be a long way to go if it was coming from the WW resovoir or the washer nozzles on the hood.

Just thinking back on what I said......the logic of the above statement would lead you to conclude that the air is entering either via one of the two screw down compression connections to the line that has the air.

One end feeds the T connector to the nozzles, while the other end connects to the PWM valve.

I have checked the first one, but the second was more difficult to get to, so perhaps that is the source of the air entry?

If it were the pump connection, the air would have to travel downwards to the PWM valve and I think that would be defying the laws of physics.

Oh, well.....wouldn't be the first time my car has done that

[Joshboody]

My thought on air was more focused before the pump cause its the suction side. I have not touched my compression fittings since install, so if I get air now it should be post-pump i would think. Couple days I should have a conclusion.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

My thought on air was more focused before the pump cause its the suction side. I have not touched my compression fittings since install, so if I get air now it should be post-pump i would think. Couple days I should have a conclusion.

Well that could be too.....if the air enters via the WW tap and and then travels along to the pump and nozzles you could have that air trapped in the line post pump once you get off meth. If you shut down the engine without using meth again that air could just sit there until the next purge.

Perhaps a good way to determine this would be to inspect for air in the lines after you shut down the engine and park the car for the evening.

Hopefully there is none.

Then in the morning, pop the hood before starting up and check for air in the line again.

If you find any, then it's probably not coming from the WW reservoir. Most likely leaking in somewhere post pump.

[EastBayE90]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Yup....me too. I am corresponding with Robert on this later today, but here is a picture I took this morning after two days of not using meth.

You can see about a one inch air gap in the main white hose that feeds the two nozzles just before going into the stainless steel T connection post pump.

I am thinking it might be coming into the line via the nozzles themselves as there would be air in the chargepipe that could get pulled up via the nozzles.

OR

It's getting in from the push fitting at the exit side of the pump. I'm not a big fan of the push fitting especially with such stiff tubing. I think there is a possibility it might not be making a good seal. Funny because all of the other connectors in the kit are high quality screw down compression connectors.

My argument would be that air always rises to the highest point in the line. That would be a long way to go if it was coming from the WW resovoir or the washer nozzles on the hood.

In any case, I am just speculating and will report back once Robert gets a chance to see my pics and respond.

This is completely normal. I have had the kit installed since May and have not had a single issue. I always have an air bubble like that in the lines going to the fittings after I have not used meth for a few days. I have checked the lines right after shutting off the car and there are no bubbles present. I typically only spray meth on the weekends. During the week I commute to work and don't spray meth at all. After not spraying meth for 5 days, I sometimes have to hit the WW sprayers for 1-3 seconds while entering WOT to prime the system back up. After that short prime I am fine all weekend and have no issues.

I imagine that if you do not spray meth for a few days, the fluid in the suction line going to the pump will fall out of suspension and back into the WW tank. That is why a small 1-3 second prime will purge the suction line and bring the fluid to the meth pump.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by (-(ellblazer420

This is completely normal. I have had the kit installed since May and have not had a single issue. I always have an air bubble like that in the lines going to the fittings after I have not used meth for a few days. I have checked the lines right after shutting off the car and there are no bubbles present. I typically only spray meth on the weekends. During the week I commute to work and don't spray meth at all. After not spraying meth for 5 days, I sometimes have to hit the WW sprayers for 1-3 seconds while entering WOT to prime the system back up. After that short prime I am fine all weekend and have no issues.

I imagine that if you do not spray meth for a few days, the fluid in the suction line going to the pump will fall out of suspension and back into the WW tank. That is why a small 1-3 second prime will purge the suction line and bring the fluid to the meth pump.

Thanks for sharing that.

I am new to meth so I don't know what to make of things but it makes sense that the water being held in suspension in the line would slowly begin to creep down as I am sure vacuum in the line dissipates eventually

In fact, Robert and Shiv suggested a brief windshield spray as well....so there ya go.

Altough this explanation makes perfect sense when you don't spray for a few days.....I don't understand why my meth flow rate will vary so much on my datalogs on any given day.

I start out spraying and recording good flow rates.....then randomly get a bad flow rate as if air just entered the line since the last good pull.

My datalog earlier in this thread shows the sporadic flow rate which oscillates and spikes......is this not a sign of air in the lines?

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=15

[Joshboody]

Stupid update:
- ran my direct line yesterday and everything was stellar
- this morning 1 log looked great
- afternoon (20deg hotter temps)... maybe couple seconds before full flow and held great, but I wasn't logging.
- after 1 stop a little more WOT to get full prime
- after another stop, lost my prime and couldn't get it back

So, I guess from the recent comments by hellblazer, I should reinstall the WW pump to use as a primer... kinda disappointed this is a necessity.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

Stupid update:
- ran my direct line yesterday and everything was stellar
- this morning 1 log looked great
- afternoon (20deg hotter temps)... maybe couple seconds before full flow and held great, but I wasn't logging.
- after 1 stop a little more WOT to get full prime
- after another stop, lost my prime and couldn't get it back

So, I guess from the recent comments by hellblazer, I should reinstall the WW pump to use as a primer... kinda disappointed this is a necessity.

Do you think maybe that checkvalve in the feed line to the washer nozzles may be defective and letting air back in?

Stupid suggestion.....is the arrow pointing in the right direction?

[335iLI]

Originally Posted by (-(ellblazer420

This is completely normal. I have had the kit installed since May and have not had a single issue. I always have an air bubble like that in the lines going to the fittings after I have not used meth for a few days. I have checked the lines right after shutting off the car and there are no bubbles present. I typically only spray meth on the weekends. During the week I commute to work and don't spray meth at all. After not spraying meth for 5 days, I sometimes have to hit the WW sprayers for 1-3 seconds while entering WOT to prime the system back up. After that short prime I am fine all weekend and have no issues.

I imagine that if you do not spray meth for a few days, the fluid in the suction line going to the pump will fall out of suspension and back into the WW tank. That is why a small 1-3 second prime will purge the suction line and bring the fluid to the meth pump.

I run a high concentration of meth and really dislike spraying it all over my car to prime the system. I however do find that it helps alot. I wish there was a better way.

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Do you think maybe that checkvalve in the feed line to the washer nozzles may be defective and letting air back in?

Stupid suggestion.....is the arrow pointing in the right direction?

not using it anymore... BUT... maybe I could use the check valve between washer tank and meth pump.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

not using it anymore... BUT... maybe I could use the check valve between washer tank and meth pump.

Oh..right. Your are tapped directly now.....gotcha.

But still a good idea to use it on your new line.

[335iLI]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Do you think maybe that checkvalve in the feed line to the washer nozzles may be defective and letting air back in?

Stupid suggestion.....is the arrow pointing in the right direction?

I intially thought that was the problem so i clamped off the line and it wasnt.

[335iLI]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

not using it anymore... BUT... maybe I could use the check valve between washer tank and meth pump.

If you used two one near the sprayers where shiv has us put it now and another between pump and tank that may work.

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by 335iLI

If you used two one near the sprayers where shiv has us put it now and another between pump and tank that may work.

Yeah, I want to avoid maybes and next time I get into the wheel well I want a solid plan. the check valve will restrict suction to the WW tank, so my guess is closer to the tank the better to keep your line full.

Currently my thought is reinstall the WW pump and add the check valve soon after the pump, this should result in very easy prime and hold for much longer. So I will have a dedicated line for Meth injection and with my own priming pump.

I'm now using the washer rubber line, but would it be overkill to use fuel line instead. Is is possible for the suction side to collapse the washer tubing.

[EastBayE90]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Thanks for sharing that.

I am new to meth so I don't know what to make of things but it makes sense that the water being held in suspension in the line would slowly begin to creep down as I am sure vacuum in the line dissipates eventually

In fact, Robert and Shiv suggested a brief windshield spray as well....so there ya go.

Altough this explanation makes perfect sense when you don't spray for a few days.....I don't understand why my meth flow rate will vary so much on my datalogs on any given day.

I start out spraying and recording good flow rates.....then randomly get a bad flow rate as if air just entered the line since the last good pull.

My datalog earlier in this thread shows the sporadic flow rate which oscillates and spikes......is this not a sign of air in the lines?

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=15

Yea once the system is primed it should flow ok. Looking at your logs it does seem sporadic. Do your meth indicator lights stay on or do they blink when your experience this sporadic meth flow? A friend of mine was getting an air leak on the inline filter that came with the PWM kit. The white crush fittings on the inline filter were allowing air to sneak in only when meth was spraying. I would recheck all your lines and fittings to make sure your not drawing in outside air. As long as there is no leaks then it is a closed system. If the system is closed it has no choice but to draw the meth from the WW tank. The meth pump will pull vacuum and will draw from the point of least resistance. If there is a small leak anywhere throughout the system it will pull air into the lines because air is easier to suck in than meth/water.

Let me know what your results are.

Originally Posted by Joshboody

Stupid update:
- ran my direct line yesterday and everything was stellar
- this morning 1 log looked great
- afternoon (20deg hotter temps)... maybe couple seconds before full flow and held great, but I wasn't logging.
- after 1 stop a little more WOT to get full prime
- after another stop, lost my prime and couldn't get it back

So, I guess from the recent comments by hellblazer, I should reinstall the WW pump to use as a primer... kinda disappointed this is a necessity.

Yea I think the WW pump is necessary. It really does help purge the system of air. I've thought about bypassing the pump but I think having it helps out a lot. Because if there is no meth/water in the suction line going to the meth pump it will be very difficult for the meth pump to draw the meth through a line full of air. Interested in knowing what your results are as well.

Originally Posted by 335iLI

I run a high concentration of meth and really dislike spraying it all over my car to prime the system. I however do find that it helps alot. I wish there was a better way.

You can always just put a vaccum cap on the T fitting that is going to the WW sprayers. That way you can prime the system fully without actually spraying your windshield. This will completely eliminate the washer sprayers from the system. I have thought about doing this. I recommend trying it out. Best of both worlds, you can prime the system and not spray meth all over your car.

Originally Posted by Joshboody

not using it anymore... BUT... maybe I could use the check valve between washer tank and meth pump.

I have wondered the same thing. If we put a check valve in the suction line going to the pump will it hold charge better and not allow the meth to fall out of suspension back into the reservoir. Maybe I'll give it a try? I just hope the check valve doesn't impede the flow at all.

[EastBayE90]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

I'm now using the washer rubber line, but would it be overkill to use fuel line instead. Is is possible for the suction side to collapse the washer tubing.

I don't think that the meth pump draws that much of a vacuum that it would cause the rubber lines to collapse. The rubber lines should be ok.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

A little bit of air by the nozzle is ok. Although I always say no air is the best way.

I just found out today my pump inlet side was catching some air as that line wasnt too snug. Soon as I snugged it up, no air.

[335iLI]

Originally Posted by (-(ellblazer420

I don't think that the meth pump draws that much of a vacuum that it would cause the rubber lines to collapse. The rubber lines should be ok.

what happens if you put a check valve right where you tee off the ww line?

[EastBayE90]

Originally Posted by 335iLI

what happens if you put a check valve right where you tee off the ww line?

There already should be a check valve in the rubber hose coming from the T to the sprayers.

If you put a check valve on the suction line coming off the T to the meth pump. I can imagine that it will hold the meth in suspension up to that T so you would only need to prime the length of line from the WW tank to the T. Rather than having to prime the whole system. I just don't know if putting a check valve in the suction line will impede the flow at all.

I like the other idea to maybe put a check valve in the rubber hose coming off the WW pump in the tank. This would theoretically hold the meth in the entire system not allowing it to drain back into the tank. Again a question of it possibly blocking flow though.

We should do some tests you guys got me thinking about all the possibilities now.