[schneid4323]

So... ive been doing my research (and this unfortunatly is my next mod in line) I think im going to purchase two used 335 turbos (from an unknown source ) and play arround with them, fortunatly i have a few WRX buddies who have swapped tubos, let me screw arround with them and see what I get. Guine Pig time! Hell if i blow the motor it would be a great opportunity to sleve it an bore it, and whatever else i can think of .

[Lee Rambler]

correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the housing on the subaru turbos a 3 bolt instead of 4? that will cause some issues. If it is indeed a TD04 housing (4 bolt pressumably), then a TD04-13G meant for a DSM would make more sense, and are still pretty economical. If it's already a TD04 housing, you could just get a new compressor wheel as well, but I'm guessing it would be much more costly to buy the wheels special order and then have a shop "rebuild" the stock turbos for you. If it will work, the TD04-13G for a DSM (mistubishi sport turbo kit for 3000gt/stelath, or used) might be the trick. I say all this still not knowing what the factory turbos are, so I could be way off base....

[Evo8MRto335I]

This idea is what I proposed a few months ago. I think is the way to go, it is cheaper and involves little hassle. I mentioned 2 size up compressor wheels, I just did not know what the stock compressor wheels numerical denomination were. The Mitsubishi 13 G are typically rated at around 360cfm while the 9 G I estimate at around 290cfm.

[elucas730]

Originally Posted by Lee Rambler

correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the housing on the subaru turbos a 3 bolt instead of 4? that will cause some issues. If it is indeed a TD04 housing (4 bolt pressumably), then a TD04-13G meant for a DSM would make more sense, and are still pretty economical. If it's already a TD04 housing, you could just get a new compressor wheel as well, but I'm guessing it would be much more costly to buy the wheels special order and then have a shop "rebuild" the stock turbos for you. If it will work, the TD04-13G for a DSM (mistubishi sport turbo kit for 3000gt/stelath, or used) might be the trick. I say all this still not knowing what the factory turbos are, so I could be way off base....

This guy on Bimmerforums claimed he replaced a faulty turbo on a 535i and it was stamped TD03: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...32&postcount=5

I'm sure Shiv (among others) has at least taken at look at the turbos to see what they were...

[Evo8MRto335I]

[QUOTE=Lee Rambler;1202307]correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the housing on the subaru turbos a 3 bolt instead of 4?


^^ You are coirrect, the TD04 13G on the Subaru WRX has 3 bolts flange on the exhaust hosuing feed by the uppipe. It wouln't work.

[grkm3]

someone already swaped the guts out over on 6speed forums,maybe he can chime in and tell us more about it.

[SfValley335i]

we're not thinking of swapping the entire turbo unit... Just the compressor wheel.... which isnt too pricy except to get it swapped out. Either way should be less than 1k with tons of power.


Heres an excerpt from the link I posted on the first page...


[QOUTE]With stock TD04-9B turbos Jack ran a best of 12.727 s @ 107.562 mph in his 1993 VR4. Going to TD04-13G turbos, and no other changes, his performance improved to 12.172 s @ 112.890 mph[/QOUTE]


12.7 at 107 is somewhat like what 335's run with Procede/Xede at a good track. Now I think its safe to say the 335 would react in a similar way to the vr4 and get .5 off the ET....

[Cadillac Johnson]

It would certainly be more than 15whp.

I would imagine the only difference in lag would be noticed on a dyno graph. Probly couldn't even tell something was done on the street, besides the increase in power or course.

[Lee Rambler]

if it's a TD03 housing (and sounds like it is), don't expect the same flow with a 13G wheel as in a TD04 housing. It may be more beneficial to look at turbos from a Volvo T5. It was a longtime ago, but I had one of those as well, and I think I remember correctly that they used a TD03 housing, and there were several variations you could get of the turbo. The stock T5 turbo setup was similar to the on in the 335 that it was set up to produce gobs of low end and good midrange, but kind of fell on it's face at the top end. The "R" turbo had much better top end though, with similar bottom and mid band power. I can't remember what wheel it was using, may be worth a little searching over at the BrickBoard.... Would mate up nicely if it's the same housing..... not sure how much trouble it would be to go to a TD04 housing, I know from a TD04 to a TD05 there is some modifications needed, or adaptors (which I don't think we have room for in the 335). It would be nice to just be able to unbolt and bolt in repacements... and cheap ones at that

[all8up]

One thing I always get confused about MHI turbos is the fact they use the TD name designation to name not only the exhaust housing but they also use it as the turbine designation. That said, I'm pretty certain the stock 335 is a TD03 exhaust housing, just because it looks way smaller than a 6cm2 housing I have typically seen on other MHI turbos such as the TD04 13G.

Regardles, I think M&M's idea is pretty sound. He is just looking to replace the compressor wheel only.

Fortunately for all of us, MHI turbo components are plentiful and cheap.
Here's a link that explains the range of MHI turbos http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm

[M&M]

The stock turbo is a TD04-9G.

[Lee Rambler]

then a TD04-13G is definitely a logical jump. Spool shouldn't be much worse at all. You can pick up used ones very cheap at DSMtrader. I'll be very interested to see results. the 9B should be pretty much maxed out with the power they are making with the ecu piggybacks, but 13G's should be good for another 150hp, assuming everything else is (fueling issues?). It shouldn't drop off at the top end either, at least at the amount of boost we're probobly looking at. I wonder if the maps currently used are tapering boost off, or if it is just the turbps running out of steam on their own? I'm guessing a new map would be helpful, but we'll see as soon as someone does it and throws it on a dyno. Very curius...

[Vince@ V K Motorwerks]

Originally Posted by SfValley335i

we're not thinking of swapping the entire turbo unit... Just the compressor wheel.... which isnt too pricy except to get it swapped out. Either way should be less than 1k with tons of power.


Heres an excerpt from the link I posted on the first page...


[QOUTE]With stock TD04-9B turbos Jack ran a best of 12.727 s @ 107.562 mph in his 1993 VR4. Going to TD04-13G turbos, and no other changes, his performance improved to 12.172 s @ 112.890 mph[/QOUTE]


12.7 at 107 is somewhat like what 335's run with Procede/Xede at a good track. Now I think its safe to say the 335 would react in a similar way to the vr4 and get .5 off the ET....

I CANT WAIT TO SEE THIS MOD DONE, IT GOT ME SO HYPED. 12.7 IS WITH THE PROCEDE NOW CAN YOU IMAGINE DP, FMIC, PROCEDE V.2, AND THIS MOD IF IT WORKS OUT. WE'LL HAVE 11 SEC DAILY DRIVERS!

[elucas730]

Originally Posted by M&M

The stock turbo is a TD04-9G.

You say TD04, other people who have pulled the turbo say TD03. Until I see a pic of a turbo pulled of a US-spec 335, it'll be up in the air for me.

[GTO2turbos]

With a bigger turbo and/or more and more boost, the limiting factor will be the fuel system and whether it can support the extra power. At what point the stock system maxes out isn't probably known, but I doubt there's alot of head room to play with. Making matters worse, I haven't heard of an easy mod to get there.

[elucas730]

Well, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves here (and I don't want to go off on too much of a tangent), but I agree that there will be issues with the fuel delivery system. At this point, it's really an unknown. It could be good up to 2000hp. Hopefully one or more of the tuners will be able to do some testing sometime soon to find out the limits.

But let's assume that the fuel rail is ok. And let's assume that the low pressure fuel pump will have no trouble supplying fuel or being replaced if need be. Let's even assume that the problematic high pressure fuel pump, which BMW and their suppliers couldn't get right the first time, turns out fine (and it better, because I don't know if there is a suitable replacement). Let's say all of that is ok...these piezo-electric direct-injection fuel injectors still scare the bejeebus out of me.

First, I don't know that it is physically possible to fit a bigger injector nozzle in there. Second, even if you can, you'll have to make absolutely sure that the spray pattern is correct or you'll foul up the spark plugs. Third, the ceramics used in the injectors have very specific piezo-electric properties, and the ECU is tuned with these properties in mind. Change the properties and you'll need to change the ECU. Which brings me to my fourth issue, how to exert control over the injectors. Maybe Shiv or someone else already has a solution, but I'd be surprised if a piggyback could exert full control over the injectors (which means someone will have to crack the ECU).

On to the (semi) good news...these new injectors are lightning fast. The way they are set up now is that under high-demand, low RPM situations (e.g. foot to the floor and under 2000rpms), the injectors are pulsed three times for every combustion cycle (see the diagram in the Engine Management pdf located in the sticky at the top of this forum). Now if we could move that 3-pulse action further out in the RPM band, fuel supply may not be a problem. Then again, maybe the reason BMW didn't move it out any further is because the injectors are too slow at those higher speeds. OR...it could be because they want to save fuel, in which case, if you are willing to give up fuel economy, you could have more power up top...

Time will tell

[LODOSS]

When I had my VR4 and I upgraded from 9b's to 13G's the difference was substantial. But then again my 9bs were kind of old. There was also a little bit more lag and also decrease in throttle response. The gain up top were well worth it.

The 9bs were running at 9psi stock on the older models and 11 psi on the newer 3000gt/stealth. rated at 300 hp and 330hp. Most people run the stock 9bs at 15psi and they were able to hit high 12's with a few supporting mod. Switching them to the 13gs running at the same 15psi will yield another 20-30 whp but more important it moves the tq curve over some more and thus increasing trap time. The 13g's I beleive are efficient up to 16 psi, however people were running 18-19 with them and had no problems. This helped the car gain another 20-30 whp.


I find it funny how closely related the 335i and the VR4s are in terms of engine performance etc. 335i had the advantage of weight and more efficient engine.. while the 3000gt/Stealth got the AWD to their advantage.

[SfValley335i]

Originally Posted by all8up

One thing I always get confused about MHI turbos is the fact they use the TD name designation to name not only the exhaust housing but they also use it as the turbine designation. That said, I'm pretty certain the stock 335 is a TD03 exhaust housing, just because it looks way smaller than a 6cm2 housing I have typically seen on other MHI turbos such as the TD04 13G.

Regardles, I think M&M's idea is pretty sound. He is just looking to replace the compressor wheel only.

Fortunately for all of us, MHI turbo components are plentiful and cheap.
Here's a link that explains the range of MHI turbos http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm

I had posted that link on the first page of this thread....

[xxx_mina]

Hold Up.... Quick Question.... the exhaust manifold... what flange does it use??? td03/04 or what??? if it uses a standard flange... its not that hard to just swap out the whole turbo... if it uses some custom bmw flange... then changing the compresser wheel might be the better idea... how much do these turbos cost from bmw parts department?

Mina

[all8up]

Originally Posted by SfValley335i

I had posted that link on the first page of this thread....

My bad, missed that part.

Anyways to answer xxx_mina,

When I looked at the manifold it looked like it was welded to the turbo.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by xxx_mina

Hold Up.... Quick Question.... the exhaust manifold... what flange does it use??? td03/04 or what??? if it uses a standard flange... its not that hard to just swap out the whole turbo... if it uses some custom bmw flange... then changing the compresser wheel might be the better idea... how much do these turbos cost from bmw parts department?

Mina

No flange, the exhaust manifold is welded to the turbine housing.

[Evo8MRto335I]

Originally Posted by LODOSS

When I had my VR4 and I upgraded from 9b's to 13G's the difference was substantial. But then again my 9bs were kind of old. There was also a little bit more lag and also decrease in throttle response. The gain up top were well worth it.

The 9bs were running at 9psi stock on the older models and 11 psi on the newer 3000gt/stealth. rated at 300 hp and 330hp. Most people run the stock 9bs at 15psi and they were able to hit high 12's with a few supporting mod. Switching them to the 13gs running at the same 15psi will yield another 20-30 whp but more important it moves the tq curve over some more and thus increasing trap time. The 13g's I beleive are efficient up to 16 psi, however people were running 18-19 with them and had no problems. This helped the car gain another 20-30 whp.


I find it funny how closely related the 335i and the VR4s are in terms of engine performance etc. 335i had the advantage of weight and more efficient engine.. while the 3000gt/Stealth got the AWD to their advantage.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just a couple of small corrections:

1) The first gen were rated at 9psi but the second gen were rated at 12psi not 11psi. The upgrade power came strictly from boost only, absolutely no other mods were changed.
2) The second gen were rated at 320hp not 330hp.

I personally have had both, the first gen 1991 R/T TT AWD and a 1994 R/T TT AWD(second gen). I also put a set of 13G on my first gen Stealth.

Other than that I like your write up. Speaking of numbers here are my numbers:

1994 Dodge Stealth with 112000 miles dynoed 268whp/299lb/tq at 12psi on 91oct on a Mustang Dyno to all 4wheels
added 3"TB from Dynamic racing(no cats), MBC at 15psi and a K&N and power went to 300.3whp/338lb/tq

car ran 13.8@99 stock and 13.4@102 after( SIR , Tucson 3100ft)