[mathematics]

Never mind. You don't understand what I'm trying to tell you.

[6spdcoupe]

Well, that was a fun (funny) read !

[6spdcoupe]

Ahh yes, the old Ti9s. They do sound pretty good at lower volumes and kept crossed fairly low sub 220 or so. After opening em a bit, then, well, try em out ! lol

I likely have a set or two still stored away somewhere..

[JazStar740]

Originally Posted by BOTUS

powerful amps are much easier on speakers than low power amps...

its not the high watts that breaks drive units its garbage signals from over driven weak amps

as for if they handle the power that's al that matters, I'd be more worried do they sound good!!!

I think what he was trying to say is that distortion will blow (destroy) a speaker faster than higher wattage... A speaker can handle clean wattage much better than it can take a 10w amp pushing lots of distortion through it. Granted you can still blow a speaker easily by pushing high wattage through it but it is a little more rare than blowing one by pushing it with an underpowered amp that is pushing straight distortion to the speaker.

[e90TiAg335i]

I know where a perfectly good set of enclosures are to test them in...

[BOTUS]

Originally Posted by JazStar740

I think what he was trying to say is that distortion will blow (destroy) a speaker faster than higher wattage... A speaker can handle clean wattage much better than it can take a 10w amp pushing lots of distortion through it. Granted you can still blow a speaker easily by pushing high wattage through it but it is a little more rare than blowing one by pushing it with an underpowered amp that is pushing straight distortion to the speaker.

thank you... exactly my point

[Quasimodem]

Those drivers look nice and certainly have good pedigree with Morel and the enclosure specs look great for underseats. But play them carefully in the beginning. You may find that you need a high-pass filter or a bass blocker regardless of their specs or how good of an enclosure you have. So by all means experiment by turning them up gradually and backing off if you hear any distortion in the bass line. Then experiment with your amp's high-pass filter or bass blocker if you are already using a low pass filter in your amp. Let us know, because getting good bass out of underseats would save some of us a lot of trunk space.

Edit: I looked closer at the spec sheet, it looks like they recommend bandpass filtering from 40 to 150 Hz. Strange band for "Mid Bass" speakers. Looks great for subs, so that is good because I wouldnt want much high mid bass coming from under my seats. These might overwhelm your Mid Range drivers in your doors.

[tdgesq]

Originally Posted by BOTUS

thank you... exactly my point

I wasn't going to say anything, but I think somebody needs to say something. Asserting that "distortion will blow (destroy) a speaker faster than higher wattage" is like claiming that human beings run faster than homo sapiens.

The reason why the amp is "distorting" is because you are clipping the output signal, resulting in a massive increase in power (wattage) from the amplifier. When you take a 10w amp and clip the signal, you can actually put out something around 20w. It is this increase in power that is destroying the speaker. The increase in power is pushing the driver beyond its thermal and/or mechanical limits, usually melting or breaking the voice coil.

Please read this: http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm

[bmw325i]

Originally Posted by tdgesq

I wasn't going to say anything, but I think somebody needs to say something. Asserting that "distortion will blow (destroy) a speaker faster than higher wattage" is like claiming that human beings run faster than homo sapiens.

The reason why the amp is "distorting" is because you are clipping the output signal, resulting in a massive increase in power (wattage) from the amplifier. When you take a 10w amp and clip the signal, you can actually put out something around 20w. It is this increase in power that is destroying the speaker. The increase in power is pushing the driver beyond its thermal and/or mechanical limits, usually melting or breaking the voice coil.

Please read this: http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm

From that same article read

Severe Clipping (square wave):
It always amazes me when I hear some idiot driving down the road and the audio is clearly distorted (is that possible :-). Many people drive their amplifiers into what could be called a square wave output (white line below). When an amplifier is pushed that hard, it is actually possible to drive the speaker with twice as much power as the amplifier can cleanly produce into the speaker. As you can see below, the yellow sine wave is the maximum 'clean' output that the amp can produce. When an amplifier is pushed way too hard, the signal will eventually look like the white line. The effective voltage of the white line is ~1.414 x the yellow line. This means the the total power driven into the speaker by the clipped (square wave) signal is double the power delivered by the 'clean' signal (yellow line). This means that the power is double but the cooling of the voice coil will not increase in proportion with the power increase (since the voice coil isn't moving as much as it needs to be for the given power dissipation). This will lead to the voice coil overheating. If we compared the output of a 100 watt amp (the one that's clipping) to a 200 watt amp, the 200 watt amplifier would be able to push the speaker as much as 40% farther than the 100 watt amp (depending on the frequency of the signal). This extra travel (in each direction from its point of rest) would result in added airflow around the voice coil.

200 watts from a 400 watt amp is better than 200 watts from a 10 watt amp. In a less extreme situation clipping alone wouldn't cause your speakers to blow.

[BOTUS]

I stand by my original post, if you don't get it... you are just wrong


check this out, a pretty high end audio manufacturer,
just released a new power amp putting out per channel 740 w @ 8 ohm,
their top end speakers are rated at just 25 to 250 w @ 8 ohm !!!

http://www.stereophile.com/content/n...ment-amplifier

[tdgesq]

Originally Posted by bmw325i

200 watts from a 400 watt amp is better than 200 watts from a 10 watt amp. In a less extreme situation clipping alone wouldn't cause your speakers to blow.

And? Evaluate: "I think what he was trying to say is that distortion will blow (destroy) a speaker faster than higher wattage..." Do you find that to be a coherent statement, or do we need another clarification of the clarification?

[biz77]

Originally Posted by BOTUS

thank you... exactly my point

And you would both be wrong. If that were true the speakers in guitar amps would be destroyed all the time. You and I both know that doesn't happen. Im guessing you also know that guitar players regularly and purposely introduce distortion to get a desired sound. With that information right there, we can safely say that distortion does NOT kill speakers.
You've fallen for the myth even though you think you know what you're talking about.
By the way, listening to what a tweaky hi-end audio company tells you, is probably your worst bet when it comes to reliable honest information. These companies are better known for their marketing and snake oil tactics, not solid information. I've worked in the consumer electronics industry for 20 years. I currently work with company's that sell $20,000.00 cables and 100,000.00 amplifiers. I know better than to purchase them, even if I could afford them.

[bmw325i]

Originally Posted by BOTUS

I stand by my original post, if you don't get it... you are just wrong


check this out, a pretty high end audio manufacturer,
just released a new power amp putting out per channel 740 w @ 8 ohm,
their top end speakers are rated at just 25 to 250 w @ 8 ohm !!!

http://www.stereophile.com/content/n...ment-amplifier

There's a good reason why there amps put out more power than their speakers can handle. If you don't get it I don't know how to explain it to you.

Edit- wikepedia can help
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headr...al_processing))

[BOTUS]

Originally Posted by BOTUS View Post

powerful amps are much easier on speakers than low power amps...

its not the high watts that breaks drive units its garbage signals from over driven weak amps

as for if they handle the power that's al that matters, I'd be more worried do they sound good!!!

Of course all along I was talking about for a similar volume level...

There's not much point building a system that will go far beyond what's already permanently damaging your hearing! And as the volume difference between 50w and 100w amp is only around a 3db increase in volume our ears can fully differentiate such a tiny change anyway.

What the better more powerful amp brings to the party is helping speakers cope with "tricky" music tracks by having better transient response. Which is basically huge reserve of grunt to cope with musical spikes / sudden huge changes in the track. The naim amp with 780w has a 4000VA power transformer to help.

In my view its why compressed music goes so loud. They rip all the "tricky" parts out so even pathetic amps go super loud and seemingly with huge bass. But its not real and not what was recorded, which is why it tends to sound crap. The up side is it does mean speakers don't get destroyed straight away when driven by low (low transient response ) power amps


some stuff I found on the internet re this for you

Transient response is generally better on 100w amps - at the same volume and power level as 50w amps. There are two reasons for that. One is the output transformer iron. There's more of it in a 100w output transformer. A transformer converts the AC current to an electromagnetic field (in the iron windings) as the field collapses, it drives the output of the transformer. Overly simplified... but there is more to collapse, collapse more efficiently when the 100w amp is loafing on 4 and the 50w amp is pushing 7 on the dial to maintain the same volume. The other reason is also due to transformers, but its the power transformer. It works less hard, and again, it has a bit of electromagnetic force in reserve for those thumps (low freq transients). Now keep this in mind - if you drive the 100watter as hard as the 50watter, making it louder than the 50, then its going to lose that reserve and begin to mush up a bit, just like the 50 did (but at lower volume level).

[bmw325i]

Originally Posted by BOTUS

Of course all along I was talking about for a similar volume level...

There's not much point building a system that will go far beyond what's already permanently damaging your hearing! And as the volume difference between 50w and 100w amp is only around a 3db increase in volume our ears can fully differentiate such a tiny change anyway.

What the better more powerful amp brings to the party is helping speakers cope with "tricky" music tracks by having better transient response. Which is basically huge reserve of grunt to cope with musical spikes / sudden huge changes in the track. The naim amp with 780w has a 4000VA power transformer to help.

In my view its why compressed music goes so loud. They rip all the "tricky" parts out so even pathetic amps go super loud and seemingly with huge bass. But its not real and not what was recorded, which is why it tends to sound crap. The up side is it does mean speakers don't get destroyed straight away when driven by low (low transient response ) power amps


some stuff I found on the internet re this for you

Transient response is generally better on 100w amps - at the same volume and power level as 50w amps. There are two reasons for that. One is the output transformer iron. There's more of it in a 100w output transformer. A transformer converts the AC current to an electromagnetic field (in the iron windings) as the field collapses, it drives the output of the transformer. Overly simplified... but there is more to collapse, collapse more efficiently when the 100w amp is loafing on 4 and the 50w amp is pushing 7 on the dial to maintain the same volume. The other reason is also due to transformers, but its the power transformer. It works less hard, and again, it has a bit of electromagnetic force in reserve for those thumps (low freq transients). Now keep this in mind - if you drive the 100watter as hard as the 50watter, making it louder than the 50, then its going to lose that reserve and begin to mush up a bit, just like the 50 did (but at lower volume level).

That is pretty much what I was trying to say.

The only way clipping will destroy a speaker is if your already pushing its limits but the main thing to worry about is sound quality.

I noticed with component speakers they usually get loud enough with about 75-100watts so even if you have a 200watt amp powering them you can only turn it up so much before it is too loud for your ears. That doesn't really apply to bass and midbass though.

[808MGuy]

Originally Posted by mathematics

it doesn't matter who makes it. no speaker that size is going to handle mid bass at 350W RMS. side note: people give way too much credit to Morel...

I have 260W from the bridged channels of my Audison LRx 4.5 going to each of my Morel ADMW9s and they have been pushed pretty hard. Never had any issues so I don't doubt that they could handle 350W.

I also doubt that any reputable manufacturer like Morel or PG would flat out lie about their product's capability. Both of those companies have been around a long time and you don't stick around that long by making bad products.

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by e90TiAg335i

I know where a perfectly good set of enclosures are to test them in...

You never know!