[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Most EV's only charge to 80% at full charge rate. There is no cell balancing so that is the best way for EV's to limit battery damage and extend life.

I use a fast charger that gives me 100% in less than 5 min. It's called a gas pump. In fact all three of our vehicles and both boats are the same.

[Condorll]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Most EV's only charge to 80% at full charge rate. There is no cell balancing so that is the best way for EV's to limit battery damage and extend life.

Oh wait, so the "estimated range" spec is cut by 20% now? 300 mile range is now 240 miles to 0 charge? So if you keep 20% as a minimum charge you only have 60% of the estimated range, 180 miles?

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Condorll

Oh wait, so the "estimated range" spec is cut by 20% now? 300 mile range is now 240 miles to 0 charge? So if you keep 20% as a minimum charge you only have 60% of the estimated range, 180 miles?

Seems to me that there are some fairy tales being said about car charge range on the non stop EV new car ads plaguing our tv screens.

[KRS_SN]

EV battery in my understanding is like a balloon

Fill it to 100% or ..fill it too quick ...shortens lifespan of the balloon.
Fll it slowly and fill up to 80% to prolong life..
The advertised max capacity of the balloon is just a number...

[Car-Addicted]

With the proper charger you can charge a LiPo to full capacity but there are cravats.
First any charge reduces battery life. Note how Apple handles charging of iPhones. So it is optimum to let the battery get down to 20% capacity (generally determined by voltage) and then charge to 80%.
Second EV's balance pack charges and not individual cells. So that is why most charge to 80% at max rate and them switch to a reduced rate. This becomes more problematic as the packs age and the voltage of the individual cells have a greater standard deviation from the pack voltage. This is due to changes in internal resistance of the individual cells.
If you could continue to charge packs at maximum rate with out balancing you will damage the cells and have a fire on your hands. Something EV manufacturers frown upon and that is why they build fail safes into the charging system. The lack of these sophisticated charging systems is why EBikes have a much higher tendency to catch fire. Radio Controlled racing batteries also have a pretty good safety rate but then again we are charging $100.00 batteries with $400.00 balancing chargers and each cell is individually balanced during the charge cycle and we do controlled discharges.

As for the manufactures taking liberty with ranges, Nothing new here car companies have always had a tenuous relationship with the truth.
We all remember Joe Isuzu.

[Pauly Wauly]

Here's an interesting article that I read today.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...-economist.amp

EV market could become the 'next big flop':
Investing in electric vehicles has been ‘a bad bet,’ Steve Moore says
Car companies would be 'smart' to invest in hybrid vehicles:

Economist Steve Moore analyzes the state of the automotive market with a potential UAW agreement and the transition to electric vehicles.

Just like Ford’s "Edsel" model in the 1950s, Trump administration economist Steve Moore cautioned that electric vehicles (EVs) may be the auto market's "next big flop."

"Henry Ford's son was named Edsel, and this was going to be the great car, all of the executives said, 'This is the car everybody's going to want to buy.' Ford made 500,000 of these new sedan cars, but guess what?" Moore said on "Varney & Co." Monday. "Nobody bothered to ask consumers whether they wanted the car."

"And of course, the Edsel was one of the great flops of all time," the economist continued. "I'm here to tell you, if these trends continue, we're going to see the EV market become the next big flop because car buyers don't want them."

Moore’s comments come as the EV push at Ford and General Motors hit a speed bump that’s cutting into the automakers’ profits and causing them to reevaluate their electric plans amid a price war and supply chain challenges.

Ford noted in its earnings report released last week that its EV unit posted a quarterly loss before interest and taxes (EBIT) of $1.33 billion – an acceleration after a loss of $1.08 billion in the prior quarter. It added that it’s cutting production of its Mustang Mach-E while scaling back about $12 billion in planned investments in the EV segment, including delaying its second battery plant in Kentucky.

General Motors saw its quarterly profit reduced by about $1.5 billion because of higher costs and the impact of selling more EVs, though it doesn’t break out losses from its EV unit in the same way Ford does.

GM CFO Paul Jacobson said that it would abandon an interim goal of building 400,000 EVs from 2022 through mid-2024, instead focusing on a goal of "getting to 1 million EVs of production by the end of 2025 alongside hitting our margin targets."

"Given the huge losses that these companies like Ford are suffering because of the EV mania, I saw a statistic this morning that Ford is losing something like between $40,000 and $60,000 per car," Moore reacted. "It's been a bad bet."


What would an electric vehicle for every American look like?

Manhattan Institute senior fellow Mark Mills has the latest on electric vehicle ownership on 'Making Money.'

The economist further argued that auto industry-wide bailouts may be likely amid companies’ EV losses.

"The federal government is also already offering all of these sweeteners to get people to buy electric vehicles. You get a $7,500, basically, check from the government every time you buy an EV. Let's not forget that we're subsidizing the battery companies, all of these things," Moore noted.

"The taxpayers are paying for these things," he added. "And yet the most amazing thing is, even with all these sweeteners, Americans are still saying, I don't want them."

Truck drivers don’t want an electric vehicle: Sen. Markwayne Mullin

Sen. Markwayne Mullin, R-Okla., discusses the United Auto Workers strike on ‘The Bottom Line.’

Speaking to car dealers around the country, Moore reported that their lots "are full of EVs" and only 10% of clients purchase EVs off the lot today.

"I think the car companies would be smart going to hybrids where you can have gas and an electric battery," the economist and adviser suggested. "But the car companies aren't making those cars. And the reason they aren't making them is because the government has increasingly mandate[d] that all cars be EVs."

[Murf the Surf]

It's not just the car battery's catching fire but all lithium ion batteries are a risk according to Toronto Fire Service.

https://torontosun.com/news/local-ne...-battery-fires

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

It's not just the car battery's catching fire but all lithium ion batteries are a risk according to Toronto Fire Service.

https://torontosun.com/news/local-ne...-battery-fires

The FAA has known about this universal risk for well over a decade.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

The FAA has known about this universal risk for well over a decade.

I physically go through our LiPo inventory every month. In the us you can only ship LiPo and LiFe by ground service.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Wauly

Here's an interesting article that I read today.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...-economist.amp

EV market could become the 'next big flop':
Investing in electric vehicles has been ‘a bad bet,’ Steve Moore says
Car companies would be 'smart' to invest in hybrid vehicles:

Economist Steve Moore analyzes the state of the automotive market with a potential UAW agreement and the transition to electric vehicles.

Just like Ford’s "Edsel" model in the 1950s, Trump administration economist Steve Moore cautioned that electric vehicles (EVs) may be the auto market's "next big flop."

"Henry Ford's son was named Edsel, and this was going to be the great car, all of the executives said, 'This is the car everybody's going to want to buy.' Ford made 500,000 of these new sedan cars, but guess what?" Moore said on "Varney & Co." Monday. "Nobody bothered to ask consumers whether they wanted the car."

"And of course, the Edsel was one of the great flops of all time," the economist continued. "I'm here to tell you, if these trends continue, we're going to see the EV market become the next big flop because car buyers don't want them."

Moore’s comments come as the EV push at Ford and General Motors hit a speed bump that’s cutting into the automakers’ profits and causing them to reevaluate their electric plans amid a price war and supply chain challenges.

Ford noted in its earnings report released last week that its EV unit posted a quarterly loss before interest and taxes (EBIT) of $1.33 billion – an acceleration after a loss of $1.08 billion in the prior quarter. It added that it’s cutting production of its Mustang Mach-E while scaling back about $12 billion in planned investments in the EV segment, including delaying its second battery plant in Kentucky.

General Motors saw its quarterly profit reduced by about $1.5 billion because of higher costs and the impact of selling more EVs, though it doesn’t break out losses from its EV unit in the same way Ford does.

GM CFO Paul Jacobson said that it would abandon an interim goal of building 400,000 EVs from 2022 through mid-2024, instead focusing on a goal of "getting to 1 million EVs of production by the end of 2025 alongside hitting our margin targets."

"Given the huge losses that these companies like Ford are suffering because of the EV mania, I saw a statistic this morning that Ford is losing something like between $40,000 and $60,000 per car," Moore reacted. "It's been a bad bet."


What would an electric vehicle for every American look like?

Manhattan Institute senior fellow Mark Mills has the latest on electric vehicle ownership on 'Making Money.'

The economist further argued that auto industry-wide bailouts may be likely amid companies’ EV losses.

"The federal government is also already offering all of these sweeteners to get people to buy electric vehicles. You get a $7,500, basically, check from the government every time you buy an EV. Let's not forget that we're subsidizing the battery companies, all of these things," Moore noted.

"The taxpayers are paying for these things," he added. "And yet the most amazing thing is, even with all these sweeteners, Americans are still saying, I don't want them."

Truck drivers don’t want an electric vehicle: Sen. Markwayne Mullin

Sen. Markwayne Mullin, R-Okla., discusses the United Auto Workers strike on ‘The Bottom Line.’

Speaking to car dealers around the country, Moore reported that their lots "are full of EVs" and only 10% of clients purchase EVs off the lot today.

"I think the car companies would be smart going to hybrids where you can have gas and an electric battery," the economist and adviser suggested. "But the car companies aren't making those cars. And the reason they aren't making them is because the government has increasingly mandate[d] that all cars be EVs."

this is borderline hilarious... i think if there was another auto bailout for this reason after taxpayer dollars were spent on pushing this tech and infrastructure... we would legitimately need protests on the streets

[Murf the Surf]

Put this in the "LOL" thread as well, not sure where it belongs more.

[AmuroRay]

The media is the propaganda arm of the government.

We went from a news article (from publications that literally didn’t exist before, or that that have no experience reviewing cars) posting how electric cars save so much money and are great “right now”

To news articles ”admitting” about how no one wants an electric car and it’s bad business.

The facts didn’t change, and if news really reported news, and didn’t act like the marketing arm of Tesla and the like (how many articles can you write about thr cyber truck being spotted?) hyping up all their new products, conversations like this whole tread would never happen.

Too many people think propaganda is cheesy WW2 PSAs, and don’t realize that Disney was doing animated shorts targeted at kids for the war effort. People don’t realize that they the government creates a Hegelian Dialect and gives you two wrong answers and sets your against the other side.

There is no climate emergency, and if there was, more focus would be on localizing supply chains to reduce shipping, and moving away from a consumption based society to one that holds on the products longer.

There is no climate emergency and even if there was, electric cars wouldn’t solve it. So why the push? To keep consumers beholden to a grid, limit their travel (among other issues)

[AmuroRay]

I remember the Ford CEO saying that gas cars are “holding back” their business. Apparently their business is government handouts, because their electric business isn’t selling.

Of course, there are always those people who have to have the newest yes toy, no matter how bad it is - the people who bought the Mach E and Lightning and Tesla’s.

Those people are the same ones who line up, eat the propaganda and regurgitate it back to you unironically, but they are thankfully not the majority, and so this electric car revolution is going to take a while.

I’m sure they will drum up more fake wars and artificial shortages of fuel to make gas less appealing (the secret is to make these changes appear to be your choice) but let’s just enjoy the time we have left not driving refrigerators with IPads for a dashboard

Edit:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-...and%20analysts.

Ford CEO Jim Farley sent a big message to investors on Wednesday at its capital markets day: It's an EV company first.

"Our legacy business has been holding us back," Farley said on a livestream presentation to media and analysts.

[AmuroRay]

Guys, the only reason why a business, whose purpose is to make money - would sell at a loss and force a product on prospective buyers (which they don't want) is because they are working lockstep with the government to push an agenda.

Ford is "losing money" but the government has promised to keep them afloat.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Ford is "losing money" but the government has promised to keep them afloat.

I think the bigger dog in this fight is money. Cars run on energy, car companies run on money. ESG (Environmental,Social and Governance) is a massive impact on business financing these days.

An ESG Reckoning Is Coming
The movement to reform capitalism has seen a wave of converts in recent years. The Business Roundtable, which represents CEOs of the country’s largest companies — from Comcast to Coca-Cola, Walmart to Wells Fargo — issued its Statement on the Purpose of a Corporation in the summer of 2019. In so doing, it joined a broad coalition — from U2’s Bono to BlackRock CEO Larry Fink — who want capitalism to serve workers, customers, and the environment in addition to shareholders. Investors with $100 trillion of assets under management have signed on to the United Nations Principles for Responsible Investment, which advocates for a greater focus on environmental, social, and governance (ESG) issues in investing.
https://hbr.org/2021/03/an-esg-reckoning-is-coming

This should scare the bat crap out of anyone who is not a Marxist.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

I think the bigger dog in this fight is money. Cars run on energy, car companies run on money. ESG (Environmental,Social and Governance) is a massive impact on business financing these days.

An ESG Reckoning Is Coming
The movement to reform capitalism has seen a wave of converts in recent years. The Business Roundtable, which represents CEOs of the country’s largest companies — from Comcast to Coca-Cola, Walmart to Wells Fargo — issued its Statement on the Purpose of a Corporation in the summer of 2019. In so doing, it joined a broad coalition — from U2’s Bono to BlackRock CEO Larry Fink — who want capitalism to serve workers, customers, and the environment in addition to shareholders. Investors with $100 trillion of assets under management have signed on to the United Nations Principles for Responsible Investment, which advocates for a greater focus on environmental, social, and governance (ESG) issues in investing.
https://hbr.org/2021/03/an-esg-reckoning-is-coming

This should scare the bat crap out of anyone who is not a Marxist.

Don't you love it when celebrities make more money than God under the capitalist system then turn around and say, "Okay, it was good for me, but it's not good for you"?

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

Put this in the "LOL" thread as well, not sure where it belongs more.

Think about it this way. This is an attempt by Ford to increase the possibility of an EV in the mind of the public. They make this halo drag racer as an all electric and get some press on it. It helps position EVs in general as potentially fun and powerful cars. It's marketing.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

I think the bigger dog in this fight is money. Cars run on energy, car companies run on money. ESG (Environmental,Social and Governance) is a massive impact on business financing these days.

An ESG Reckoning Is Coming
The movement to reform capitalism has seen a wave of converts in recent years. The Business Roundtable, which represents CEOs of the country’s largest companies — from Comcast to Coca-Cola, Walmart to Wells Fargo — issued its Statement on the Purpose of a Corporation in the summer of 2019. In so doing, it joined a broad coalition — from U2’s Bono to BlackRock CEO Larry Fink — who want capitalism to serve workers, customers, and the environment in addition to shareholders. Investors with $100 trillion of assets under management have signed on to the United Nations Principles for Responsible Investment, which advocates for a greater focus on environmental, social, and governance (ESG) issues in investing.
https://hbr.org/2021/03/an-esg-reckoning-is-coming

This should scare the bat crap out of anyone who is not a Marxist.

Money is for the short sighted lower level peons - the people at the top, who already have all the wealth aren't motived by more money.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

I think the bigger dog in this fight is money. Cars run on energy, car companies run on money. ESG (Environmental,Social and Governance) is a massive impact on business financing these days.

An ESG Reckoning Is Coming
The movement to reform capitalism has seen a wave of converts in recent years. The Business Roundtable, which represents CEOs of the country’s largest companies — from Comcast to Coca-Cola, Walmart to Wells Fargo — issued its Statement on the Purpose of a Corporation in the summer of 2019. In so doing, it joined a broad coalition — from U2’s Bono to BlackRock CEO Larry Fink — who want capitalism to serve workers, customers, and the environment in addition to shareholders. Investors with $100 trillion of assets under management have signed on to the United Nations Principles for Responsible Investment, which advocates for a greater focus on environmental, social, and governance (ESG) issues in investing.
https://hbr.org/2021/03/an-esg-reckoning-is-coming

This should scare the bat crap out of anyone who is not a Marxist.

Ha! Betterment talk from a bunch of pedos, creeps and freaks.
Nice.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Money is for the short sighted lower level peons - the people at the top, who already have all the wealth aren't motived by more money.

Irrevocable truth # 1: There are only two forces in life, sex and money. There is no such thing as too much of either no matter how wealthy you are.

[Z4Kevo]

EV's are garbage

[Car-Addicted]

Ruh Roh
Just 10 Electric Vehicles Will Qualify For Biden’s Signature Tax Credit
Just eight electric vehicles and two plug-in hybrids will qualify for the Biden administration’s signature $7,500 consumer tax credit when stricter battery-sourcing rules go into effect Tuesday, according to data from the IRS.
This limited list is a dramatic reduction from the more than 100 models that qualified for a full $7,500 consumer tax credit in 2022, and roughly halves the number that had qualified since the start of the year while the Treasury Department finalized its rules, Bloomberg reported. The strict sourcing requirements — which have been a point of contention between the U.S. and several allies — require at least 40% of the critical minerals in an electric vehicle’s battery to be mined and processed in the U.S., or a country with which the U.S. has a free trade agreement, in order to qualify for half of the $7,500 tax credit, with at least 50% of the battery be assembled in the U.S. to qualify for the other half.
The ten fully eligible models hail from just four firms — General Motors, Tesla, Ford and Stellantis — with the latter three also owning the seven additional vehicles that will qualify for half-credits, according to IRS data. Industry titans including Volkswagen, Hyundai, Nissan, BMW and Volvo, alongside startup Rivian, are all set to lose access to outstanding partial credits Tuesday when the sourcing rules go into effect, Bloomberg reported.

The Biden administration did offer a concession to automakers by exempting leased vehicles from the sourcing requirements, a change that Hyundai and Rivian lobbied for, according to Bloomberg.

“You’ll own nothing” — And “you’ll be happy about it.”
Klaus Schwab