[citkane]

Originally Posted by The flying Dutchman

Lucky we have in Europe 98-100 octane gas, then it should be able for at least 350-370 hp with no other mods than a revised ECU.

Good work guys

Sorry to be the one who has to tell you this, but the Euro octane rating is different than the North American octane rating. Check it out at wikipedia, there´s a lengthly explanantion of ROZ vs. MOZ. Our 98 octane in the EU is approx. 93 octane in the US. Never mind our 100 octane fuel, it´s way to expensive anyway.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by The flying Dutchman

Lucky we have in Europe 98-100 octane gas, then it should be able for at least 350-370 hp with no other mods than a revised ECU.

Good work guys

Euro and Japanese octane ratings are based on the
RON (research octane number) method of determining octane.
In the US we use RON+MON (motor octane number)/2, that gives US fuels their octane number, or PON (pump octane number).
Thus, US fuel is an average of RON and MON, and RON is the typically higher octane number given the same fuel.
The RON and MON methods differ in how they are derived.

RON typically shows a higher number. It is derived under low severity/low stress conditions with the variable compression ratio piston engine at about 600rpm.
MON typically show a lower number. It is derived under higher speed
and/or higher load with the piston engine at about 900rpm.

That's why US fuels show lower octane numbers. However, make no mistake, US fuel is the equivalent in high quality to fuels around the world.
The biggest drawback has been US fuels high/er sulfur content.
That's already been addressed and many US fuels (gasoline and diesel) have had much lowered sulfur content. By next year US fuels should be near 0ppm sulfur comparable to most Euro fuels.

It's not exact but some RON to PON octane number equivalents are:
RON-90/91 PON-87
RON-95 PON-91
RON-98 PON-94

Typical US PON 93 is about 97-98 RON in Euro and Japanese equivalent.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Nice job overall. I am quite impressed that this engine, given it's modes sized turbo's could achieve that much power boost.

Yet, I'm still curious about some things.
Initially BMW said the turbo's would be about 7psi max.
You've stated that at full throttle you were seeing 8-9psi stock.
That's quite a bit higher especially given the modest 91 oct. in Cali.
Next, you say that you've only boosted max psi to 11, or about 2-3psi max.
I understand that you've also achieved greater boost pressure at part throttle, so I'm sure that improves daily driving nicley.

I don't recall where BMW quoted 7psi of boost. The first time I saw an advertised boost figure was on the e90post FAQ which said 8.5psi. Which is exactly what I saw when the car was stock. I've seen the turbos support as much as 20psi albeit in the midrange and with reduced efficiency.

The big question for me is the power gains with stock exhaust vs. your exhaust.
Will the stock exhaust xede still give the same boost pressures?

No, we run slightly less boost with the factory exhaust. It all comes down to keeping backpressure at a reasonably level. Especially on the 91oct we get here. In areas that get higher octane, I'm sure we can run a higher boost without problem. But so far, all my testing has been on 91oct. I'll be going out of state to do some 93oct tuning in the near future. And also to the UK to tune on that gas as well.

How has the power curve changed in terms of moving the power band up or down the rev band, or has it stayed the same yet with more power?
IOW, with stock exhaust how has the power band and the curve changed?

With just the Xede, and on 91oct, the car will pick up at least 35whp and 30lb-ft of torque. I say at least because those numbers are seen before we even got full control over the fuel system. But still, it won't reach the 60whp and 75 to 90lb-ft gains we got with the Xede/Exhaust combo. As for the shapes of the curve, I don't know what to tell you. All the graphs are on line. In fact, they are posted in the first post of this thread.

11 psi per 3 cylinders is extremely impressive given the modest size of those turbo's.

It doesn't take a lot of turbo to pressure 1.5l worth of engine to 11psi at a max of just 7000rpm. Its really not much of a challenge. The turbos are probably along the lines, size-wise, of a Garret GT25.

With your modded exhaust, has the power band moved up the rev band?

See first post on this thread for graphs.

Also, the stock exhaust xede seems to have pretty modest performance gains. You claim a gain of 30hp/30lb ft. at the wheel.
Given a 10% typical RWD loss, as also demonstrated by the stock whp numbers, the xede will give a crank power gain of about 33hp/33lb ft. with stock exhaust. I get those numbers by 33 x .1 (10%) = 3.3,
33-3.3= 29.7 or about 30.
So, basicallythere is a 10% gain in power given 300/300 as stock crank power. The xede w/ stock exhaust should give 333/333 crank.

Ah, the number game. Where do we start? First, the stock car doesn't make 300bhp. It's closer to 320bhp. So forget about the 10% driveline loss figure. Heck, forget about expressing driveline loss as a % alltogether. It doesn't work that way. Just because every internet forum on the planet talks about driveline loss as a fixed % doesn't make it true. Most tuners, including myself, don't like to talk in crank hp numbers because any way you put it, it's all estimates based upon dubius-at-best assumptions that not everyone agrees upon. So we only like to talk about gains in whp or, better yet, % gains in wheel hp.

For such a relative modest power gain why not simply do software?
For Audi; APR, REVO, Giac have managed much greater than 10% improvements in HP and even greater in torque gains, and that's with stock exhaust. Those gains only require a software download.

Are you comparing the claimed gains that others make on Audis to the actual gains we made on a 335i? If so, I really don't know what to say or even where to begin.

I think I missed something in this long thread, but does your exhaust remove any cat-cons?

Yes you did and yes it does

If the stock exhaust is so restrictive then how much power can be increased with just the exhaust mod with stock tuning?

About 10whp and 10lb-ft of torque. And some boost instability.

Regards,
shiv

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I don't recall where BMW quoted 7psi of boost. The first time I saw an advertised boost figure was on the e90post FAQ which said 8.5psi. Which is exactly what I saw when the car was stock. I've seen the turbos support as much as 20psi albeit in the midrange and with reduced efficiency.



No, we run slightly less boost with the factory exhaust. It all comes down to keeping backpressure at a reasonably level. Especially on the 91oct we get here. In areas that get higher octane, I'm sure we can run a higher boost without problem. But so far, all my testing has been on 91oct. I'll be going out of state to do some 93oct tuning in the near future. And also to the UK to tune on that gas as well.



With just the Xede, and on 91oct, the car will pick up at least 35whp and 30lb-ft of torque. I say at least because those numbers are seen before we even got full control over the fuel system. But still, it won't reach the 60whp and 75 to 90lb-ft gains we got with the Xede/Exhaust combo. As for the shapes of the curve, I don't know what to tell you. All the graphs are on line. In fact, they are posted in the first post of this thread.


It doesn't take a lot of turbo to pressure 1.5l worth of engine to 11psi at a max of just 7000rpm. Its really not much of a challenge. The turbos are probably along the lines, size-wise, of a Garret GT25.


See first post on this thread for graphs.



Ah, the number game. Where do we start? First, the stock car doesn't make 300bhp. It's closer to 320bhp. So forget about the 10% driveline loss figure. Heck, forget about expressing driveline loss as a % alltogether. It doesn't work that way. Just because every internet forum on the planet talks about driveline loss as a fixed % doesn't make it true. Most tuners, including myself, don't like to talk in crank hp numbers because any way you put it, it's all estimates based upon dubius-at-best assumptions that not everyone agrees upon. So we only like to talk about gains in whp or, better yet, % gains in wheel hp.



Are you comparing the claimed gains that others make on Audis to the actual gains we made on a 335i? If so, I really don't know what to say or even where to begin.



Yes you did and yes it does



About 10whp and 10lb-ft of torque. And some boost instability.

Regards,
shiv

"Claimed" for Audi' but "actual" for BMW?
There are dyno's out there.

Stock exhaust:
Boost instability, really?
Boost creep?

This is interesting.
You say:
"No, we run slightly less boost with the factory exhaust. It all comes down to keeping backpressure at a reasonably level. Especially on the 91oct we get here. In areas that get higher octane, I'm sure we can run a higher boost without problem."

There isn't much you can do to control the backpressure in the stock exhaust. So, part of the lower power increase with stock exhaust is due to lower boost increase. What happened when you ran the same boost increase of your custom exhaust with the stock exhaust?

Also, will you offer the xede with stock exhaust at higher boost levels for customers that do have access to 93 octane fuel?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by RPM90

"Claimed" for Audi' but "actual" for BMW?
There are dyno's out there.

Stock exhaust:
Boost instability, really?
Boost creep?

This is interesting.
You say:
"No, we run slightly less boost with the factory exhaust. It all comes down to keeping backpressure at a reasonably level. Especially on the 91oct we get here. In areas that get higher octane, I'm sure we can run a higher boost without problem."

There isn't much you can do to control the backpressure in the stock exhaust. So, part of the lower power increase with stock exhaust is due to lower boost increase. What happened when you ran the same boost increase of your custom exhaust with the stock exhaust?

Also, will you offer the xede with stock exhaust at higher boost levels for customers that do have access to 93 octane fuel?

The the stock exhaust, we ran 10psi of boost across the board. Still more than stock (esp. above 6000rpm where the stock car tapers down to 5-6psi) but less than what we run with the exhaust. Trying to run more boost with all that backpressure, on 91oct, tend to induce knock around 5000rpm. Then again, we have come up with that timing "enrichment" strategy the other day which quells the tip-in ping that we noticed before. So once again, actual Xede-only numbers should be better now. Just how much better remains to be seen.

And my comment regarding the audi flashes were a little tongue-in-cheek A little backstory: I became the most hated man on the Audi forums because several years ago, I wrote a technical story for European car magazine about chip testing.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~b5turbo/project%20audi%20(part%202).pdf#search='shiv%20eur opean%20car%20project%20a4'

I compared a bunch of different brands on the dyno, on the drag strip, on the road, etc,. I even conducted turbo efficiency/charge temp comparisons in order to properly quantify what they were done. And what they did wasn't good. Then, years later, the hatred was nurtured after we posted the dyno results of one of our tech guy's (Dustin@Vishnu) personal bi-turbo S4. The results, once again, weren't good. Now I'm not saying that all tuned Audis I've tested were dissappointing. Just most of them. In general, they are running the turbos into choke with intake charge temps well beyond reasonable. They make good power on race gas since you are eliminating the biggest constraint in the system. But on pump gas, I've always found them to lack. Especially compared to the WRXs and EVOs that we are used to seeing. Needless to say, our tech guy sold his S4 and got an Evo. Although he doesn't miss an opportunity to take our 335i out for a spin.

Cheers,
shiv

[Ph3n0m73]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

...but that's just about underpromising and overdelivering.

D@mn, Shiv,

I'm too excited.:rocks:

Springer

this is awesome i cant wait to get my car and buy this product. And back to the question about those of us with 93 octane?

[X35 MGR]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Shiv,

Nice job overall. I am quite impressed that this engine, given it's modes sized turbo's could achieve that much power boost.

Yet, I'm still curious about some things.
Initially BMW said the turbo's would be about 7psi max.
You've stated that at full throttle you were seeing 8-9psi stock.
That's quite a bit higher especially given the modest 91 oct. in Cali.
Next, you say that you've only boosted max psi to 11, or about 2-3psi max.
I understand that you've also achieved greater boost pressure at part throttle, so I'm sure that improves daily driving nicley.

The big question for me is the power gains with stock exhaust vs. your exhaust.
Will the stock exhaust xede still give the same boost pressures?
How has the power curve changed in terms of moving the power band up or down the rev band, or has it stayed the same yet with more power?
IOW, with stock exhaust how has the power band and the curve changed?
11 psi per 3 cylinders is extremely impressive given the modest size of those turbo's.

With your modded exhaust, has the power band moved up the rev band?

Also, the stock exhaust xede seems to have pretty modest performance gains. You claim a gain of 30hp/30lb ft. at the wheel.
Given a 10% typical RWD loss, as also demonstrated by the stock whp numbers, the xede will give a crank power gain of about 33hp/33lb ft. with stock exhaust. I get those numbers by 33 x .1 (10%) = 3.3,
33-3.3= 29.7 or about 30.
So, basicallythere is a 10% gain in power given 300/300 as stock crank power. The xede w/ stock exhaust should give 333/333 crank.

For such a relative modest power gain why not simply do software?
For Audi; APR, REVO, Giac have managed much greater than 10% improvements in HP and even greater in torque gains, and that's with stock exhaust. Those gains only require a software download.

I think I missed something in this long thread, but does your exhaust remove any cat-cons?
If the stock exhaust is so restrictive then how much power can be increased with just the exhaust mod with stock tuning?

Apart from the obvious Shiv, who as we all know does a wonderful job informing everyone about this product, I think it's just great that we also have others who challenge him to do more, to explain more and to justify more. In the end, we're all much better off for it - Shiv does his homework, we get our answers and get happy, Shiv gets his checks. Everyone s

Now if only our (nation's) democracy worked that way too . . .

[sstarch1]

Originally Posted by X35 MGR

Now if only our (nation's) democracy worked that way too . . .

[lcrain]

I am very very impressed with this product and plan on buying it when I eventually get a 335. I have one question for shiv, are you having any difficulty getting this power to the groud with the stock tires? I would think that a car pushing that much power would let the rear tires break loose. The e46 M3 looses the rear tires pretty easily when it is making big power, just wondering if it is the same case. Thanks

[sarends]

Shiv (or anyone else), could you please point me towards the latest dyno tests. #2 - Is there one that shows the (awesome) 370lb ft at the rear wheels of torque! Whoooo - that is allot of grunt!!!!

[QUOTE=shiv@vishnu]Quick update:

During the last week or so, we've been working on a dynamic timing feature that induces an additional 0.3 second timing retard under sudden load conditions. This keeps that 1psi overboost during sudden WOT conditions from inducing knock. This transient retard means that we dont have to apply a large static retard timing under boost. Which means that the car makes even more torque than before (that is how we got up to 370lb ft at the wheels). Peak power is still capped at 330-335 due to limitations in octane and the induction/turbo system.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by jjw3477

this is awesome i cant wait to get my car and buy this product. And back to the question about those of us with 93 octane?

Yeah... you lucky guys should make more power and torque. Even with the same Xede map (ignition trims will automatically advance).

I am very very impressed with this product and plan on buying it when I eventually get a 335. I have one question for shiv, are you having any difficulty getting this power to the groud with the stock tires? I would think that a car pushing that much power would let the rear tires break loose. The e46 M3 looses the rear tires pretty easily when it is making big power, just wondering if it is the same case. Thanks

Traction isn't an issue in 3rd gear and up. And even in second, it's only an issue if you slap open the throttle at 5000rpm. 1st gear, of course, goes up in smoke in any rpm above 4000rpm if you go full throttle. Fortunately, the throttle isn't an on/off switch I don't see any need to upgrade the wheels and tires. A lsd would be nice though as it would allow you to hang the tail out and keep it out there. This applies to a stock car as well.

Shiv (or anyone else), could you please point me towards the latest dyno tests. #2 - Is there one that shows the (awesome) 370lb ft at the rear wheels of torque! Whoooo - that is allot of grunt!!!!

I don't have the dyno files from that last visit to the dyno. My USB drive wouldn't communicate with the dyno computer for some reason. It was also from a different dynojet (Mustang Ranch, Santa Clara, CA) so I don't want to confuse matters. Once I back that result up on the usual Dynojet (Modacar), I'll be sure to post up official results. Expect 350lb-ft of torque on the production kit. If you get more, that's just icing on the cake

Shiv

[sstarch1]

Ahhh..indiana...what are you good for??


...93 octane.
That. is. all.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by sstarch1

Ahhh..indiana...what are you good for??


...93 octane.
That. is. all.

Hey, I lived in NJ for 20 years. Those winters sucked. Although I admired the drivers. By contrast, you give Californians a light rainfall and they drive like its the end of the world.

[stressdoc]

I wonder if BMW AG is considering saving some R&D $ on the 335 si, by just hiring Shiv and the Vishnu operation.

[OpenFlash]

Thanks for the vote of confidence but i think those guys can get along just fine without us. We're not exactly swiming in any untested waters here. There is a lot more that goes on in the R&D stages at the factory that we could ever hope to reproduce in the aftermarket. It just doesn't leak out to the public. You should see the kind of nifty "engineering excercises" some of my friends (who work at PVO, Mazda and Mitsubishi) get to conduct. I get awfully jealous.

shiv

[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Thanks for the vote of confidence but i think those guys can get along just fine without us. We're not exactly swiming in any untested waters here. There is a lot more that goes on in the R&D stages at the factory that we could ever hope to reproduce in the aftermarket. It just doesn't leak out to the public. You should see the kind of nifty "engineering excercises" some of my friends (who work at PVO, Mazda and Mitsubishi) get to conduct. I get awfully jealous.

shiv

They were playing seriously with several variants of the N54. Not sure how such things get decided, but there was/is one tuned at about 330-340 bhp. I figured that one was being considered for later release in a possible si/zhp model, or to set the E92 apart from the E90. Tough to release such an engine when you are still selling Zs with the old M engine w/333 bhp. But given the dyno #s that Vishnu and others have gotten, I now wonder if we didn't get this more potent version. When I first saw the torque&HP curves, my first thought was, 'wow, this engine is programmed, the high end power is curtailed by software,' and hence the great untapped tuning potential.

[ICALL]

I was just at my dealership (doing something unrelated), and my sales guy was asking about my new 335i. Just standard BS... told him I loved the car and that it was plenty fast. He asked how many miles, to which I replied 300, and he said "oh, just wait until you hit mile 1200 and the ecu self tunes" ... "the techs tell me that is good enough for another 20-30whp"

Is this true... does the 335i ship with a detuned ECU for the break-in period? It makese sense, I just haven't heard anything about it. Anyone out there with this engine and + 1200 miles experience anything that might back this up?

-Geoff

Bullshit? Also I saw a site claiming to break in a car the opposite of what most say(brutally). I'll post when I get home. Was wondering if that was bullshit too. Considering you modified your 335i and pounded on it with an extremely short break-in period, you'd know how bad/beneficial this was...
Thx

[ICALL]

Link to "controversial engine break-in method"

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Not looking to hijack the thread, but since Shiv knows the in's and out's of this ecu, and after following this for a few weeks, strangely I've come to trust him. (It helps to see him answer every intelligent question/accusation/concern, other posters have thrown at him) I should be getting my 335 coupe in the next few weeks and wanted to do it right.

Also, I know you just started installs for Cali, but if you could give a rough estimate on out of state shipment (2-4 weeks, 1-2 months, etc.) I'd really appreciate it.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by ICALL

Link to "controversial engine break-in method"

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Not looking to hijack the thread, but since Shiv knows the in's and out's of this ecu, and after following this for a few weeks, strangely I've come to trust him. (It helps to see him answer every intelligent question/accusation/concern, other posters have thrown at him) I should be getting my 335 coupe in the next few weeks and wanted to do it right.

Also, I know you just started installs for Cali, but if you could give a rough estimate on out of state shipment (2-4 weeks, 1-2 months, etc.) I'd really appreciate it.

I guess you and I may be in (on) the same boat and truck (to S. FL), literally. My car is at the port awaiting a vessel for transport and I expect to be picking it up in 3-4 weeks. I'm interested in Shiv's Xede-only kit, especially if it can be added and then taken off (if needed) 5-10 min. Not that it's really necessary on this already insanely fast car, but an extra 30+HP/30+TQ is enough for me!

[e36jakeo]

I had my Subaru Legacy Reflashed by Vishnu today. Luckily for me Shiv was my tuner, and showed up in the 335i that has been discussed so much in this thread. What a guy - he let me take it out for a spin while he added some HP to my Subi! I ran two 0-100 tests with my Treo recording the whole thing. I can't figure out how to get the video OFF my treo and onto this board, so I took a stop watch to it later. Even with a crappy lauch and pretty slow shifting I got a 4.5 0-60 and a 10 second run to 100!!!!
The most notable part of that car is the torque. At 10% throttle it is just like a N/A 330i. Get on it more and hold onto your neck! The turbos kick in like a locamotive and PUUULLLLLL!!! It pulls like a mother even at 1800 RPM in 6th gear. As a matter of fact, it makes so much power everywhere that you can just leave it in 4th and drive past everyone from 40 MPH to 140 (not that I went that fast). Ridiculous amounts of torque (well over 400 lbs at the crank). I am used to a supercharged S2000 where the car doesn't start to make power until 6K and doesn't peak until 9K. BTW, this 335i will walk right past my S/C S2K! It is REALLY hard to go slow in a car that makes power so effortlessly.
The exhaust is throaty at low RPM, and a bit more subdued (but still very much present) above 3K. My request for the production version would be a bit quieter at low RPMs and a bit louder at high (if you can engineer that one, Shiv).
The main downside in the whole thing was that when I got back in my newly reflashed Legacy GT it felt SLOW! A 390 HP 335i will make anything (except maybe an M5) seem slow, though. Once I had some time alone on with the Subi I forgave it for its inadequacies, and did notice a noticable HP addition and a ton more midrange torque, but I will save that story for the Subi forum.
A quick note about Shiv: any guy who will hand the keys to his newly tuned $50K Bimmer to go romp around, raising hell in the streets of Danville, is already cool. On top of that, he was incredibly helpful with the subi, and super knowledgable. Thanks so much, Shiv! And don't forget the mods for the sedan 335i!!!!

[GAaaAR]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

I had my Subaru Legacy Reflashed by Vishnu today. Luckily for me Shiv was my tuner, and showed up in the 335i that has been discussed so much in this thread. What a guy - he let me take it out for a spin while he added some HP to my Subi! I ran two 0-100 tests with my Treo recording the whole thing. I can't figure out how to get the video OFF my treo and onto this board, so I took a stop watch to it later. Even with a crappy lauch and pretty slow shifting I got a 4.5 0-60 and a 10 second run to 100!!!!
The most notable part of that car is the torque. At 10% throttle it is just like a N/A 330i. Get on it more and hold onto your neck! The turbos kick in like a locamotive and PUUULLLLLL!!! It pulls like a mother even at 1800 RPM in 6th gear. As a matter of fact, it makes so much power everywhere that you can just leave it in 4th and drive past everyone from 40 MPH to 140 (not that I went that fast). Ridiculous amounts of torque (well over 400 lbs at the crank). I am used to a supercharged S2000 where the car doesn't start to make power until 6K and doesn't peak until 9K. BTW, this 335i will walk right past my S/C S2K! It is REALLY hard to go slow in a car that makes power so effortlessly.
The exhaust is throaty at low RPM, and a bit more subdued (but still very much present) above 3K. My request for the production version would be a bit quieter at low RPMs and a bit louder at high (if you can engineer that one, Shiv).
The main downside in the whole thing was that when I got back in my newly reflashed Legacy GT it felt SLOW! A 390 HP 335i will make anything (except maybe an M5) seem slow, though. Once I had some time alone on with the Subi I forgave it for its inadequacies, and did notice a noticable HP addition and a ton more midrange torque, but I will save that story for the Subi forum.
A quick note about Shiv: any guy who will hand the keys to his newly tuned $50K Bimmer to go romp around, raising hell in the streets of Danville, is already cool. On top of that, he was incredibly helpful with the subi, and super knowledgable. Thanks so much, Shiv! And don't forget the mods for the sedan 335i!!!!

Oooo i cant wait to see that video from your treo. By the way how accurate can using a stop watch be? Not questioning how fast the 335i is, but theres a huge margin of error doing that.