[Clap135]

Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste

Can someone please post these programming details up highlighting the 3 degree timing retard at the same load calculation.

Why would the same load conditions have 3 degree retards?

[Litos]

this may be very bad for JB3/JB4 owners - myself included

funny thing is that there is no support from Mike or Terry fighting for their product

i liked my JB4 for the 3 days i had it on Map 1. Map 2 made my car barrell roll itself into the dealership (totally my fault though).

nevertheless, it's good to know how the JB4 works differently than other tunes.....

[Litos]

that being said, i still would like to know what actual damage those "knocks" do to the engine.

i mean, if the car knocks when it's stock, does that mean a bone stock N54's engine/tune will not last longer than 40-50K miles.

if so, the car is a shitbox regardless if it's tuned or not.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by Litos

this may be very bad for JB3/JB4 owners - myself included

funny thing is that there is no support from Mike or Terry fighting for their product

i liked my JB4 for the 3 days i had it on Map 1. Map 2 made my car barrell roll itself into the dealership (totally my fault though).

nevertheless, it's good to know how the JB4 works differently than other tunes.....

What went wrong with your car?

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Litos

that being said, i still would like to know what actual damage those "knocks" do to the engine.

The same type of damage does to any gasoline engine. Bearing/rings/pistons/rods/crank, you name it.

[joyride]

Please post the, "did someone actually read the programming of the ECU" as to which you replied "both". I would love to see the coding...

[Clap135]

Here is the timing table for a stock n54 ecu. Stock n54 runs somewhere around 130 peak falling to 105, 14psi would be somewhere around 160-170 falling to 130, notice the different timing maps implement by BMW themselves

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Litos

that being said, i still would like to know what actual damage those "knocks" do to the engine.

.

according to my understanding, this is impossible to pinpoint exactly because it depends on about a zillion factors not limited to

-how the specific car in question was driven (what RPMs, how often, etc...)

-ambient temperature conditions, and how the car was driven in specific conditions

-specific condition/quality of mechanical parts. there is absolutely going to be variaiton in this in any car, or mechanical device of any kind

-what map/tune was run, and what conditions the car was driven under during this time

IN general, same things that happen to all cars when they knock. cumulative engine damage.

[Litos]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

What went wrong with your car?

well, i have no idea if it was tune related, but ignition coil #4 took a shit on me 2.5 seconds after "test running Map 2" on the JB4.

here's the story: ran the car on Map 1 for about 5 or 6 WOT pulls on Sunday - felt amazing.

drove the car like a poon for 3 days straight.

when i left work on Wednesday, i swapped to Map 2 (on Mike's reccomendation).

i drove it about 20 miles from work to my subdivision.

found a nice straight away and WOT from 2nd gear at 40mph. somewhere halfway through 3rd the car fell on it's face and miliseconds before i lifted, the Service Engine and the dreaded Half Yellow Engine light came on.

cleared the codes, removed JB4 and DCI's and towed the car to the dealer.

fuel pump was replaced, but the diagnosis showed ingintion coil #4. coil was replaced and the car stopped "stuttering and idling like shit".

no one was able to actually tell me that the JB4 caused it. if so, i'd be REALLY surprised. not counting on it though.

[Litos]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

according to my understanding, this is impossible to pinpoint exactly because it depends on about a zillion factors not limited to

-how the specific car in question was driven (what RPMs, how often, etc...)

-ambient temperature conditions, and how the car was driven in specific conditions

-specific condition/quality of mechanical parts. there is absolutely going to be variaiton in this in any car, or mechanical device of any kind

-what map/tune was run, and what conditions the car was driven under during this time

IN general, same things that happen to all cars when they knock. cumulative engine damage.

and the only real thing i took from that is the cold hard fact that the 335 knocks at stock boost on the stock tune, which ideally gives me the impression that the car is complete garbage, inefficient and a grenade waiting to happen EVEN in stock form.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Litos

this may be very bad for JB3/JB4 owners - myself included

funny thing is that there is no support from Mike or Terry fighting for their product

i liked my JB4 for the 3 days i had it on Map 1. Map 2 made my car barrell roll itself into the dealership (totally my fault though).

nevertheless, it's good to know how the JB4 works differently than other tunes.....

As I've said these same arguments have been made since 2007. Nothing has changed except the people making them. My posts have addressed every point raised. I simply am not going to waste my time posting the same thing over and over again in the same thread. So read my posts and if something isn't answered feel free to ask. Terry doesn't even visit this forum so don't expect to hear from him either.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Here is my summary:

1) Do timing dips constitute knock and/or are they an indication that damage is being done to your motor. No.
2) Is avoiding them a best practice for producing consistent power? Yes.
3) Does the JB4 have a mechanism to detect these dips and learn tuning that will proactively avoid them. Yes, it is being tested/developed now.
4) Do motor failures at 18+ psi, methanol, large turbos, nitrous, etc, indicate that someone running tune only at 13-14psi has anything to worry about? Of course not. More power more risks and more potential problems.

[e90injrz]

Originally Posted by Litos

well, i have no idea if it was tune related, but ignition coil #4 took a shit on me 2.5 seconds after "test running Map 2" on the JB4.

here's the story: ran the car on Map 1 for about 5 or 6 WOT pulls on Sunday - felt amazing.

drove the car like a poon for 3 days straight.

when i left work on Wednesday, i swapped to Map 2 (on Mike's reccomendation).

i drove it about 20 miles from work to my subdivision.

found a nice straight away and WOT from 2nd gear at 40mph. somewhere halfway through 3rd the car fell on it's face and miliseconds before i lifted, the Service Engine and the dreaded Half Yellow Engine light came on.

cleared the codes, removed JB4 and DCI's and towed the car to the dealer.

fuel pump was replaced, but the diagnosis showed ingintion coil #4. coil was replaced and the car stopped "stuttering and idling like shit".

no one was able to actually tell me that the JB4 caused it. if so, i'd be REALLY surprised. not counting on it though.

its just coincidental. These cars are know for having faulty Plugs,coils,injectors and of course HPFP.

Like i said before a tune will just amplify a problem that already exists.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

As I've said these same arguments have been made since 2007. Nothing has changed except the people making them. My posts have addressed every point raised. I simply am not going to waste my time posting the same thing over and over again in the same thread. So read my posts and if something isn't answered feel free to ask. Terry doesn't even visit this forum so don't expect to hear from him either.

Why do you think that BMW decreased the set timing maximum 3 degrees on the higher boost 335is?

[Clap135]

I asked you questions based on your summary, and you ignored it.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

All this means is when the implementation of timing control via the Pro-board comes out, it will be a safer approach to tuning (last I heard).

Again, for the record my post were never about the JB or Mike/Terry.

Simply about engine tuning.

[chiaobaby]

What I like to see is timing tables from different DME software versions? What version is this original table from what year? I dont think this is conclusive unless someone provides DME dumps of all N54 software versions and revisions that shows the same info.............

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

LOL what's next, you want to talk to all the little people that put your car together?
The captain that shipped it across the world?

The guy who started it up at the port, dead cold, and floored it on the trucks that take it to your dealer.

The mechanic 2 months out of school who did the PDI check and ripped around the parking lot?

The salesmen who took the car for gas and ripped on it before you bought it?

Who says different software versions have different timing tables?

[Litos]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

3) Does the JB4 have a mechanism to detect these dips and learn tuning that will proactively avoid them. Yes, it is being tested/developed now.

so i have to wait for the development update in order to feel as if my car is running safer?

just to be clear - i don't donkey stomp my car and i don't plan on doing anything else to it besides a fmic, because afterall, i live in Houston. 115 heat index with 80% humidity makes me want to stomp a fresh litter of kittens.

that being said, i "might" WOT my car 3 or 4 times a month. i don't "plan" on having engine failures do to my driving habits, but i'm just tryiong to get a feel for what exactly this tune does.

i'm not gonna lie - i like the JB4 and i loved how it pulled on my car, but the evidence in this thread is swaying my brain a little bit

[joyride]

Programming, the logic that uses those tables man, not the variables that the programming uses. THE ACTUAL PROGRAMMING!!!!

The thing is, without actually knowing what the programming is doing, just looking at bits and pieces what the ECU uses. Won't tell you the whole story.

You show a stock ecu with a bad data log, i'm sure there are a ton of jb# logs showing things pretty good. So it's not as cut and dry as you apparently obsess about.

Now, the real question is, why doesn't the JB use some sort of timing control? They can put this entire business to bed if they did.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by chiaobaby

What I like to see is timing tables from different DME software versions? What version is this original table from what year? I dont think this is conclusive unless someone provides DME dumps of all N54 software versions and revisions that shows the same info.............

Timing hasnt changed, the first graph i posted is bone stock mapping used by bmw. As i said the stock car runs in the 130 load range down low and midrang and falls off ot 105ish.

14psi, like the IS model overboost feature would be in the 160-170 range downlow, midrange, falling to 130ish up top.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Litos

well, i have no idea if it was tune related, but ignition coil #4 took a shit on me 2.5 seconds after "test running Map 2" on the JB4.

here's the story: ran the car on Map 1 for about 5 or 6 WOT pulls on Sunday - felt amazing.

drove the car like a poon for 3 days straight.

when i left work on Wednesday, i swapped to Map 2 (on Mike's reccomendation).

i drove it about 20 miles from work to my subdivision.

found a nice straight away and WOT from 2nd gear at 40mph. somewhere halfway through 3rd the car fell on it's face and miliseconds before i lifted, the Service Engine and the dreaded Half Yellow Engine light came on.

cleared the codes, removed JB4 and DCI's and towed the car to the dealer.

fuel pump was replaced, but the diagnosis showed ingintion coil #4. coil was replaced and the car stopped "stuttering and idling like shit".

no one was able to actually tell me that the JB4 caused it. if so, i'd be REALLY surprised. not counting on it though.

The N54 has a variety of common problems that are not related to tuning, including fuel pumps, injectors, coils, VANOS, gas vapor valves, wastegate rattle, poor PCV, etc. If a coil went out it was probably a fluke thing.

Mike

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by joyride

Programming, the logic that uses those tables man, not the variables that the programming uses. THE ACTUAL PROGRAMMING!!!!

The thing is, without actually knowing what the programming is doing, just looking at bits and pieces what the ECU uses. Won't tell you the whole story.

You show a stock ecu with a bad data log, i'm sure there are a ton of jb# logs showing things pretty good. So it's not as cut and dry as you apparently obsess about.

Now, the real question is, why doesn't the JB use some sort of timing control? They can put this entire business to bed if they did.

The ignition tables I posted are the base ignition maping tables. Those number will not be hit if the car knocks and will not be surpassed if the car doesnt knock. There are likley some IAT comp tables, but we will see whats on the table once ATR is released and the tuning is given to the community.