[Mattscott]

A great read Shiv. Much appreciated.

[Jeff@Eurobahn.us]

Originally Posted by nyc335i

So doesn't the SSTT alter the adaptations Shiv was talking about. Meaning it can be detectable with progman 29.2?

nope

[lndshrk]

Shiv,

Just to let you know that the ECU doesn't need to see "fuel demand" to
estimate the torque output of the ECU.

EVERYTHING is mapped in MSD80.

2 Megabytes of code space - 256 K of Cal data.

Jim

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Jeff@Eurobahn.us

I can answer some of these. 29.2 can detect the 4 adaptations that they care about most. This can happen on V80 or V81. The v81 is more sensitive but they both can detect certain tunes. In addition v-81 has a more invasive test that looks for additional things every time the DME is energized.

Jeff
Eurobahn

Well, a lot of interesting information. It just does not fit to the fact, that we have at least one v80 29.2 progman Attaché user, who seems to have no problems up to now in this environment

[ezatnova]

I'm probably just too impatient, but with 29.2 and DME 81 out for a little bit now, I'm surprised we don't have concrete and full answers out now about what exactly the impact is. Lots of good info here about "81 will impact this" or "29.2 will monitor for that" but no real conclusions or proof of what happens, either with the behavior of the car, or with codes - hidden or displayed.
I suppose time will tell. Getting 29.2 on Wednesday makes me have ants in my pants though.

[purplewidow]

so wait if i just bring my car in for an oil change they are gonna perform an update on my car? wtf is that about?

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by purplewidow

so wait if i just bring my car in for an oil change they are gonna perform an update on my car? wtf is that about?

BMW has a complete history record of your car. Whenever something comes out which should be applied to your car, this record will be updated. This ensures that your car will have all needed changes and fixes to operate as you expect it from a BMW. That's the concept.

Now, when you bring your car to the dealership, this record will be checked and the changes will be applied. In case the record says "update progman to v29.2", they will do it.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

I'm probably just too impatient, but with 29.2 and DME 81 out for a little bit now, I'm surprised we don't have concrete and full answers out now about what exactly the impact is. Lots of good info here about "81 will impact this" or "29.2 will monitor for that" but no real conclusions or proof of what happens, either with the behavior of the car, or with codes - hidden or displayed.
I suppose time will tell. Getting 29.2 on Wednesday makes me have ants in my pants though.

You need the following (feel free to volunteer)....

You need a car with a tune with MSD81 / CIP 29.2 and you need access to FASTA data.

AFAIK, no one here has access to FASTA data.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by T Bone

You need the following (feel free to volunteer)....

You need a car with a tune with MSD81 / CIP 29.2 and you need access to FASTA data.

AFAIK, no one here has access to FASTA data.

What is FASTA data ?

[Calgary Agent]

Originally Posted by T Bone

You need a car with a tune with MSD81 / CIP 29.2 and you need access to FASTA data.

AFAIK, no one here has access to FASTA data.

Bingo. You hit the nail on the head.

I'm speculating (as are most of us), but I suspect that tuned vehicles with the 29.2 CIP update *on either / both the v80 & v81 DME* will begin to receive WARRANTY VOID notices from BMW NA 2-3 months following the next time they plug into the dealership diagnostic system. See FASTA data

Originally Posted by e.n335

What is FASTA data ?

FASTA data is code stored in the ECU that is NOT visible at the dealership level. FASTA data is recorded / transferred to BMW NA (Europe?) whenever a diagnostic is run on the vehicle.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by e.n335

What is FASTA data ?

Raw data that gets collected by the DME on a wide range of variables. BMW uses this data to diagnose issues, particularly new issues or problematic issues.

Dealers don't normally have access to this data.

No one has been able to confirm if the detect code is part of the FASTA data.... The scary part is some of the tuners have declared that they are clean.

We don't know this.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Raw data that gets collected by the DME on a wide range of variables. BMW uses this data to diagnose issues, particularly new issues or problematic issues.

Dealers don't normally have access to this data.

No one has been able to confirm if the detect code is part of the FASTA data.... The scary part is some of the tuners have declared that they are clean.

We don't know this.

Thank you for explanation .

[oc24]

And this is exactly why even if a tune works on the 81/29.2, it means nothing. Operational does not equal safe. Invisible equals safe, and how this can be determined, I have no idea. I'm hoping the experts will soon.

[NM_BMW]

Originally Posted by e.n335

BMW has a complete history record of your car. Whenever something comes out which should be applied to your car, this record will be updated. This ensures that your car will have all needed changes and fixes to operate as you expect it from a BMW. That's the concept.

Now, when you bring your car to the dealership, this record will be checked and the changes will be applied. In case the record says "update progman to v29.2", they will do it.

Wouldn't the update only be done during a service interval? If you went in before the 15k mark and had a problem with lets say your washer fluid leaking. I don't think they would take the time to update you to the new progman. They would fix the leak and you would go on your way correct? They would wait for the service interval.

[T Bone]

Upping the Ante

Not calling out any tuner in particular but if the tuners are confident that their solution is not detectable, ask your tuner if they are willing to make a respresent (a legal promise) that their solution is not detectible.

To the tuners, if you make such a representation, and somebody buys your solution in part of because of this represenation, there will be legal consequences.

Which of the tuners is willing to step up and make this representation?

(I expect to hear crickets chirping)

[NM_BMW]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Upping the Ante

Not calling out any tuner in particular but if the tuners are confident that their solution is not detectable, ask your tuner if they are willing to make a respresent (a legal promise) that their solution is not detectible.

To the tuners, if you make such a representation, and somebody buys your solution in part of because of this represenation, there will be legal consequences.

Which of the tuners is willing to step up and make this representation?

(I expect to hear crickets chirping)

I think the tuners would only be able to support that their tune was undetectable at the dealership level. I don't believe most of them have access to the FASTA(sp?) data.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Humtek

Wouldn't the update only be done during a service interval? If you went in before the 15k mark and had a problem with lets say your washer fluid leaking. I don't think they would take the time to update you to the new progman. They would fix the leak and you would go on your way correct? They would wait for the service interval.

Why should they wait ? When they have time they apply the changes, even when your car is in only for an oil-change. It's good money for a dealership ...

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by Humtek

I think the tuners would only be able to support that their tune was undetectable at the dealership level. I don't believe most of them have access to the FASTA(sp?) data.

My question is aimed squarely at whether tuners are willing to put money behind their words about detectibility..... At the dealer level or at the manufacturer's level....

In fact, I would expect all the tuners to expressly call out they CANNOT make any promises or representations that their solution is not detectible because of the liability of even implying they are not detectible.

[oc24]

I thought Shiv had said he has access to the necessary tools, and Jeff from SSTT repeatedly refers to the FASTA checks/measures.

[oc24]

Also, at least the v80 people have options (Dinan/Shark), the v81 people are SOL.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by slubu

I thought Shiv had said he has access to the necessary tools, and Jeff from SSTT repeatedly refers to the FASTA checks/measures.

Again, see who steps up to the plate legally....

I will boldly predict the tuners will actually need to add a provision in their contract / agreement with their customers that they CANNOT guarantee undetectability.

Once they do this, how is your confidence now?

[Calgary Agent]

Originally Posted by e.n335

Why should they wait ? When they have time they apply the changes, even when your car is in only for an oil-change. It's good money for a dealership ...

Sooner or later your car will be updated *if you keep it / service it*. PROGMAN / CIP updates take anywhere from a few minutes up to several hours to do, all depending on the amount of code being read / replaced.