[Soterios]

Originally Posted by baege

lots of interesting replies, but not one hits precisely on the question I posed:

anyone go from manual to DCT or another good manumatic, then miss manual, go back to manual to then say "what was I thinking, I should have stayed broken up with manual"?

I think that's because how 'good' the manumatic is doesn't matter. I'm not opposed to automatics because I think they're 'worse'. It's the opposite. I know that a good auto is faster in just about every way.

I just enjoy rowing gears. How fast/strong/good an automatic doesn't matter.

[10"]

Originally Posted by Soterios

I think that's because how 'good' the manumatic is doesn't matter. I'm not opposed to automatics because I think they're 'worse'. It's the opposite. I know that a good auto is faster in just about every way.

I just enjoy rowing gears. How fast/strong/good an automatic doesn't matter.

This. Don't care about milliseconds. Don't care about smooth shifts or fast shifts. That should be the driver's responsibility not the gearbox computer's.

[GTF]

Last MT I had was an M3...loved it. (Wife hated it.)
But I lived in suburban Chicago then....FLAT.
I now live in very hilly area, and would no longer appreciate a MT.
Drove friends Shelby recently, and the uphill starts were a pain. I think topography impacts the appeal of a stick. Or I just got old.

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

I find it funny how everyone says wife/Gf hated the manual car. Do you guys really buy cars for your SO's lol?

[Soterios]

Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal

I find it funny how everyone says wife/Gf hated the manual car. Do you guys really buy cars for your SO's lol?

Well. Logistically it's annoying that she can't drive my car home if needed. We've just been lazy about teaching her, though.

[Rmtt]

Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal

I find it funny how everyone says wife/Gf hated the manual car. Do you guys really buy cars for your SO's lol?

That has always been a big deciding factor in any of my toys. They have always been manuals because I know my wife can't drive one.

She once tried to move one of my Corvettes into the driveway to paint the garage. I didn't even know she knew where the spare key fob was.

I came home to what looked like someone had done a burn-out half way up the driveway like they were trying to heat the tires up at the strip.

Now that I think about it...I wonder if she did know what she was doing..

[XMetal]

Originally Posted by DanG

DCTs are also much faster on the track. And I don’t have to listen to my wife complaining about how difficult it is to drive a manual.

Not disagreeing. I have both a DCT and a manual. But when I want to have so fun, manual always leave the garage.

My wife doesn't drive manuals and doesn't want to learn, but that has its advantages as well as posted by a few others

[86Zed]

Originally Posted by baege

anyone go from manual to DCT or another good manumatic, then miss manual, go back to manual to then say "what was I thinking, I should have stayed broken up with manual"?

Certainly people do, fact is are you or will you be one of them? It's a subjective question best answered by your gut instinct.

Trading out cars is never a zero loss game - rent a manual car for a week and see if the luster wears off quickly. I had more fun commuting in a friends beater MT car than a sportier AT car.

[XMetal]

The thing is...a manual car keeps me interested in it for much much longer than an automatic would. With a manual car, there are always things for me to improve on or try to hone in on, no matter how small it may be, in term of driving skills. No 2 drives are exactly the same even on the same route. Always get the urge to just go out on a drive to find a nice backroad and row through the gears. I don't have the same urge on a manumatic.

I would get bored with an automatic soon after the novelty of the new car had worn off. It does everything perfectly every time that there's nothing else for me to improve other than driving the car at its limit at the track, which I can't do very often.

[SherM4n]

Originally Posted by DanG

DCTs are also much faster on the track. And I don’t have to listen to my wife complaining about how difficult it is to drive a manual.

Performance driving to me is about problem solving, and having the car solve more problems for me doesn't make me a better driver. Unless you're racing in some kind of spec series, there will always be faster cars at an HPDE or whatever. Someone slapping down a lap of x:xx.xx at whatever track will always have me mentally clicking through the car, mods, tires, transmission, etc., before I become impressed.

Your second statement I can't argue with.

Originally Posted by XMetal

The thing is...a manual car keeps me interested in it for much much longer than an automatic would. With a manual car, there are always things for me to improve on or try to hone in on, no matter how small it may be, in term of driving skills. No 2 drives are exactly the same even on the same route. Always get the urge to just go out on a drive to find a nice backroad and row through the gears.

No doubt. I had an '03 Elantra 5-speed for 12-13 years, and enjoyed driving it every bit as much as the German sports cars I've had; perhaps even more since its limits were so much more approachable that it was fun keeping it up to speed in places where the RS Audis and M BMWs would be totally bored. The transmission played a big part in this.

[clee1982]

what's the last time you drove a manual for 2 hours and moved less than 5 miles, think that would probably be the last time you want to drive manual on daily basis...

[Alfisti]

Meh. I'm a full blown"car guy": and only have an itch for a manual when absolutely flogging a car so tbh, i don't really need it. Flappy paddles are fine by me and offer the best of both worlds.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by clee1982

what's the last time you drove a manual for 2 hours and moved less than 5 miles, think that would probably be the last time you want to drive manual on daily basis...

Funny story, but we used to live in Orange County and made frequent trips to LA. I hated driving our automatic 135i. Holding down the brake was significantly more tiring than using the clutch on my M Coupe.

I've never understood the complaints about manuals in traffic. Having lived in two of the worst areas for traffic, I've never once thought that having an automatic would make it any better, or worse, really. I'd just be driving an automatic which seems silly.

[clee1982]

CA doesn't have the worst traffic, come to Asia..., at least back in the days...

[Soterios]

Originally Posted by clee1982

what's the last time you drove a manual for 2 hours and moved less than 5 miles, think that would probably be the last time you want to drive manual on daily basis...

Agreed, but that's what a daily driver is for.

[XMetal]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Funny story, but we used to live in Orange County and made frequent trips to LA. I hated driving our automatic 135i. Holding down the brake was significantly more tiring than using the clutch on my M Coupe.

I've never understood the complaints about manuals in traffic. Having lived in two of the worst areas for traffic, I've never once thought that having an automatic would make it any better, or worse, really. I'd just be driving an automatic which seems silly.

Agreed. I'm still doing some of those driving in my M coupe whenever I'm doing things on my own (SO doesn't like riding in the coupe as much as I enjoy driving it).

Originally Posted by clee1982

CA doesn't have the worst traffic, come to Asia..., at least back in the days...

You know that CA is a huge state, don't you? CA generally don't have any traffic issues once you get out of the metropolitan areas.

[KO7]

Originally Posted by DanG

My current M2 is my first M car without a manual. Seattle traffic has gotten so bad that I haven't missed the 6 speed.

And when the DCT is faster and gets better mileage than a 6 speed, there is no longer an argument for getting a 6 speed. A year and a half in, I am still enjoying my DCT.

I'm your Canadian neighbour to the North and visit Seattle a few times a year. I couldn't imagine dailying a manual in Seattle traffic, especially with all the hills.

Mine's a DCT too, and Vancouver traffic is also horrendous during rush hour. I miss driving manual, but I really don't miss it on a daily driver. The plan is to get an old manual Miata for the weekends.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Funny story, but we used to live in Orange County and made frequent trips to LA. I hated driving our automatic 135i. Holding down the brake was significantly more tiring than using the clutch on my M Coupe.

I've never understood the complaints about manuals in traffic. Having lived in two of the worst areas for traffic, I've never once thought that having an automatic would make it any better, or worse, really. I'd just be driving an automatic which seems silly.

This. I've driven manual transmission my entire 41-year driving career. I just don't see what the problem is with a manual in traffic. I drive in Wash DC traffic, the worst part according to the news. I grew up in the DC area driving a manual trans. It's so second nature to me that driving an automatic is tiresome. In heavy traffic, a manual is always in the wrong gear to make aggressive moves into closing holes, etc. So the solution is to drive an automatic in manual mode, so what's the point then, it saves your left leg? LOL. You still have to pay attention and shift the transmission based on what you SEE and what you WANT to do, rather than what some computer thinks you want to do based on road speed, fuel consumption, engine load, and fluid pressures.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by clee1982

what's the last time you drove a manual for 2 hours and moved less than 5 miles, think that would probably be the last time you want to drive manual on daily basis...

I drove my 6-speed diesel pickup longer than 2 hours and less than 5 miles...on the Long Island Expressway...in Sunday evening beach/Hamptons traffic...towing my 24-foot enclosed race car hauler. Not for the faint of heart, with suicidal cars cutting your truck/trailer off. The experience didn't change my mind about driving a manual gearbox. Heck, it actually made the trip nicer, since the truck has a super-low "creeper" first gear where it can crawl along at slower than a walking pace with no throttle input. Perfect "cruise control" for trips through the NYC area!

When I first got the truck in 2008, I thought that the G56 gearbox was tiring to row through the gears in town compared to my car shifters. My opinion changed after a few months, and you will have to pry that shift knob out of my cold, dead, twitching hands.....

[DPelletier]

I've gone back and forth between manuals and autos over the years but the new DCT's and ZF8 are so good I don't miss the manuals anymore. Besides, I have other 6spd vehicles and motorcycles so I still have clutches for when the mood strikes.....but it doens't strike very often these days. The ZF8 in my F type was fantastic as is the one in my Z4M40i - I love getting to chose between full auto and sport paddle mode.

2 cents,
Dave

[DPelletier]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

I drove my 6-speed diesel pickup longer than 2 hours and less than 5 miles...on the Long Island Expressway...in Sunday evening beach/Hamptons traffic...towing my 24-foot enclosed race car hauler. Not for the faint of heart, with suicidal cars cutting your truck/trailer off. The experience didn't change my mind about driving a manual gearbox. Heck, it actually made the trip nicer, since the truck has a super-low "creeper" first gear where it can crawl along at slower than a walking pace with no throttle input. Perfect "cruise control" for trips through the NYC area!

When I first got the truck in 2008, I thought that the G56 gearbox was tiring to row through the gears in town compared to my car shifters. My opinion changed after a few months, and you will have to pry that shift knob out of my cold, dead, twitching hands.....

I also have a few 6spd diesel trucks and a 24' enclosed car trailer.....I've been daily driving a Ram diesel with the NV5600 for 16 years now. Love the truck and prefer the 6spd G56 and NV5600 to the 68RFE.....but still didn't want a 6spd in the F type or Z4.

to each their own.

Dave

[NewM3driver]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Here's a different analogy.

Long, LONG time ago I used to be pretty proficient with markers, since I was an illustrator by training. And I don't mean markers as in permanent markers, but real, high-end markers that you use for artists. I had in my arsenal a 100 piece market set (that set me back $500), a 120 piece color pencil set (that set me back like another $200), and a 12 piece inked pen set (I think that was another $100). I was expertly proficient at illustration with these tools.

My 11 year old daughter is learning art and illustration right now, but she does it on her iPad Pro. The results are excellent, as the pen and the apps do an amazing job at simulating the effects of different tools on different medium. I suppose I could never get the same result, as it's capable of switching back and forth between markers, pencil, and ink effortlessly. On top of it it simulates paper grain or canvas textures. Modern technology is truly amazing.



It's been nearly 20 years since I had to do illustration for a living, in fact, it's been so long that it felt like an entire lifetime ago. Now a days unless you're a well recognized illustrator, you're not making a career out of doodling. And even if you have a successful career as an illustrator, you probably at one point or another honed your skills on the computer as well as on physical media. I for one, liked doing illustrations, even though my job is in marketing and management now. So I never let the skills slide, and I pick up a pen/pencil/marker and sketch in my sketchbook whenever I want to unwind and get into a zone. But I found myself using the iPad Pro with the Pencil input more and more, as it 1) doesn't have consumables except electrons and 2) easier to clean up and 3) you an actually undo mistakes rather than having to go back and fix.

But I miss the physical sensations of blending the markers, the touch and the feedback of the pen/pencil dragging on media, the smell of the markers (OMG. I know it's toxic as f**k but holy sh*t do you get a good high from it), the pencil shavings, and the dirty fingers after a good sketch session. I don't do it nearly as often as I used to, simply because, well, I'm not being paid for my illustration skills. Plus my skills have mostly transitioned over to the digital front.

It's different. I can argue that the digital medium is superior in a lot of ways. And really, I do create faster in digital. It's performance is hard to argue. The same artwork that I can create in Illustrator vs having to hand draw it is about 5x-10x the time, if not more.

But at the end of the day, often times I'll pick up a pencil and just start to doodle. It's like an old skillset that very few people have, and most don't teach anymore, and frankly, I'm PROUD of the fact I can still do illustration on traditional media and do it well. And really, I can do it really well and the stuff comes out amazing if I put my time into it. It's far more rewarding even though the end result probably isn't that different.

But if you ask my 11 year old? She's like, "daddy why don't you just draw on the iPad?" She doesn't know what she doesn't know, as for her, she's never had to pick up a pen to do what she can do on an iPad. It's just weird to me, but for her it's 100% more natural to draw directly on a digital medium.

I dunno. Here's the last time I was "commissioned" to draw anything, and this was all done digitally. I don't think I can get as detailed with a pen/pencil/marker technique, certainly for some of the details like the QR codes and the brand/marques on the car. But I probably would have had a lot more fun doing it in pen/pencil/marker that's for sure.

I don't think it's an "ex" situation. It's more like for me, as a skilled artisan, the difference between different techniques that produce same result, but different experience. One is technically superior, exact every time, and may even have better results. The other is intimate, tactile, REAL. There's no shame in liking one over the other, but there is a REAL difference in skills involved to do either.

So the younger guys on here will lean towards the dual clutch, like your daughter goes for the iPad. The older guys that grew up driving three pedals know there isn't a dual clutch auto that can compare to the feel and control of a real manual.

A real photographer knows there is a softness to film that a digital photo simply can not match.

Or the harmonic distortion of tape will always sound richer than a digital recording.

My completely analog 25 year old 993 Porsche that gives away half the hp and half the torque without any electronic aids embarrasses my contemporary M car in just about every way. Faster, nope. But better in every other way.

Honestly the rev match feature on my M makes the car clumsy. The piped in sound is annoying.

I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks.