[JoeyFiasco]

Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger

Damn, Shiv. "Tell em why you mad son!"

Take some Benadryl, Zycam, Respa, sleep, and bring on Part 2

he tried to kill my father, i don't play that son

[SmoyKa]

A new era in tunning

Bravo Shiv

[rdsport323]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

There will be attempts by others to misinform others about the reality of this situation. They will say things like "throttle closure is an integrate part of boost control" or "getting rid of it will adversely impact diagnostic invisibility." Rubbish. The writing is on the wall and they will suggest otherwise because their hardware doesn't allow them to do it. Simple as that.

And even those who aren't easily convinced only need 2 minutes behind the wheel of a car that doesn't suffer from unintended throttle closure to see the reality of it all. It's that obvious. And it's common sense.

Shiv

Why are you so quick to dispute or refute someone else's findings or someone else's opinion on the subject matter? Someone tried to post Terry's response to your new throttle activity discussion, but the post gets deleted as soon as it gets posted. How can this benefit the community only to hear one side of the truth?... If you are so sure of your beliefs, then there should be no problem posting Terry's point of view... People come here to learn about their cars, and since this is an open forum, it would only make sense to allow other people post their findings as well even if it goes against what you think or believe.

[lawdude]

Shiv:

Another tuner believes you have tricked the ECU into thinking it is slightly under target so it will keep the throttle body open 100% all the time. He says that doesn't improve throttle response because the ECU modules the throttle movement fast enough to prevent it from being a restriction. He further believes that the method he believes you are implementing blows your diagnostic invisibility and factory boost control system out of the water.

Everyone here knows that I know practically nothing about tuning, but I'm interested in a response (from Shiv - not fanboys of any persuasion).

[Ilma]

"Analysis: There is a big and prolonged throttle closure at 4500rpm. it is prolonged enough that it would even be noticeable on a dynojet. There is additional throttle closure at 5500rpm and then again above 6000rpm. Boost, as measured on a boost gauge, would stay at the desired target of 14-15psi. But actual torque output would be inconsistent and turbos would be forced to work unnecessarily hard to push through that semi-closed throttle butterfly."

I don't understand how the throttle plate can close - causing restriction to boost and yet not register on the boost gauge?

Most boost gauges are connected to the intake manifold post throttle body. Logic would dictate that any changes in pressure due to throttle plate closure would therefore register as reduced boost on the gauge.

I pulled the following extract from that link you inserted to Autospeed.com:

The ability of this control system to change quickly is limited by the regulating speed of the throttle actuator and the time constant of the intake manifold, which can be as high as several hundred milliseconds at low engine speeds

So is this throttle closure occuring so fast that it's in the millisecond range?

Is that why it doesn't show up on the boost gauges?

[kenneth]

Great job Shiv!

Also, we don't need the other tuner's opinion here. If anybody wants they will just go check the other site.

[94JZA80]

LOL thank god my car is still antiquated (throttle by cable)

[Alex@AKMotorwerk]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Great job Shiv!

Also, we don't need the other tuner's opinion here. If anybody wants they will just go check the other site.

Well that makes no sense at all! how are we supposed to learn about all of this if we only hear one side/opinion? Come on, be open minded at least a little bit. can't there be a civil technical discussion? And who are u to decide for everyone what information should be posted?


Waiting for answers from Lawdude & Ilma's questions.

Originally Posted by lawdude

Shiv:

Another tuner believes you have tricked the ECU into thinking it is slightly under target so it will keep the throttle body open 100% all the time. He says that doesn't improve throttle response because the ECU modules the throttle movement fast enough to prevent it from being a restriction. He further believes that the method he believes you are implementing blows your diagnostic invisibility and factory boost control system out of the water.

Everyone here knows that I know practically nothing about tuning, but I'm interested in a response (from Shiv - not fanboys of any persuasion).

Originally Posted by Ilma

"Analysis: There is a big and prolonged throttle closure at 4500rpm. it is prolonged enough that it would even be noticeable on a dynojet. There is additional throttle closure at 5500rpm and then again above 6000rpm. Boost, as measured on a boost gauge, would stay at the desired target of 14-15psi. But actual torque output would be inconsistent and turbos would be forced to work unnecessarily hard to push through that semi-closed throttle butterfly."

I don't understand how the throttle plate can close - causing restriction to boost and yet not register on the boost gauge?

Most boost gauges are connected to the intake manifold post throttle body. Logic would dictate that any changes in pressure due to throttle plate closure would therefore register as reduced boost on the gauge.

I pulled the following extract from that link you inserted to Autospeed.com:

The ability of this control system to change quickly is limited by the regulating speed of the throttle actuator and the time constant of the intake manifold, which can be as high as several hundred milliseconds at low engine speeds

So is this throttle closure occuring so fast that it's in the millisecond range?

Is that why it doesn't show up on the boost gauges?

[Tobias1980]

[QUOTE=nj323ci;3777177]Well that makes no sense at all! how are we supposed to learn about all of this if we only hear one side/opinion? Come on, be open minded at least a little bit. can't there be a civil technical discussion? And who are u to decide for everyone what information should be posted?


+1 As long as it is techical arguments it is benficial for us all!

[GGreek5]

Good info Shiv. But I see the drop on my boost gauge at 4200-4500 rpm. The boost always lowers at this rpm and then ramps up again. I noticed it on my dyno runs as well. Boost always drops at 4500, about 1-2 psi, and then goes back up again by the time I hit 5000 rpm.

[5soko]

Originally Posted by lawdude

Shiv:

Another tuner believes you have tricked the ECU into thinking it is slightly under target so it will keep the throttle body open 100% all the time. He says that doesn't improve throttle response because the ECU modules the throttle movement fast enough to prevent it from being a restriction. He further believes that the method he believes you are implementing blows your diagnostic invisibility and factory boost control system out of the water.

Everyone here knows that I know practically nothing about tuning, but I'm interested in a response (from Shiv - not fanboys of any persuasion).

+1

[RiXst3r]

I've done plenty of obdII datalogging on my car stock and tuned, and I had no throttle closure stock. On the new procede maps I also have no throttle closure. When I can look at my obdII logs of throttle posistion, and they look the same stock as tuned, and boost smooth and spike free, then you know the tune is doing things right with boost control. Boost is rock solid on my high-resolution boost gauge with peak recall... no spikes, no dips, just a smooth curve like it should be, and the ECU never had to close the throttle to keep down any spikes. Its not a "trick", its not doing something that will "tip off" the ecu to know you are tuned... its just controlling boost accurately enough that the ecu almost never has to jump in and close the throttle, same as stock.

I can't see how throttle closure is a good thing if a car like mine has pretty much NONE while stock.

Just my 2c on the issue.... I am not a tuner, so this is just my opinion of what I have seen playing around with my obdII logger

[NatesGr8]

great info shiv, can't wait for part two!!!

[dmboone25]

Why would Terry's opinion on the matter be deleted? I don't understand--having as much information on these topics is beneficial to us all, regardless of who we decide to purchase from. And just because I have Tune A now doesn't mean I might not want Tune B at some point. We are consumers, after all.....

I agree with Lawdude--I would like to see what Shiv has to say to Terry's opinions.

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by nj323ci

Well that makes no sense at all! how are we supposed to learn about all of this if we only hear one side/opinion? Come on, be open minded at least a little bit. can't there be a civil technical discussion? And who are u to decide for everyone what information should be posted?


Waiting for answers from Lawdude & Ilma's questions.

You must be naive to think that my friend! Each tuner will have their opinion, and will agree to disagree. The truth is most of us are not kids who can't think for ourselves I always take what I read with a grain of salt.

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by kenneth

You must be naive to think that my friend! Each tuner will have their opinion, and will agree to disagree. The truth is most of us are not kids who can't think for ourselves I always take what I read with a grain of salt.

Yes, but I and the other mods will be watching this thread very closely.
All who cross the line will be taken care of.

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

Yes, but I and the other mods will be watching this thread very closely.
All who cross the line will be taken care of.

Thank you!

[mwahlert]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I want my throttle cable control back. Maybe carbs should be enlisted as well!

or - we could just focus on flash tuning and full control of the engine management and then this wouldn't even be a problem..

[GGreek5]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Why would Terry's opinion on the matter be deleted? I don't understand--having as much information on these topics is beneficial to us all, regardless of who we decide to purchase from. And just because I have Tune A now doesn't mean I might not want Tune B at some point. We are consumers, after all.....

I agree with Lawdude--I would like to see what Shiv has to say to Terry's opinions.

+1.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by mwahlert

or - we could just focus on flash tuning and full control of the engine management and then this wouldn't even be a problem..

No. This problem exists with current reflash options as well. Those with flashes can verify this themselves using an inexpensive OBD logging tool.

[Dr_Dirt]

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

I've done plenty of obdII datalogging on my car stock and tuned, and I had no throttle closure stock. On the new procede maps I also have no throttle closure. When I can look at my obdII logs of throttle posistion, and they look the same stock as tuned, and boost smooth and spike free, then you know the tune is doing things right with boost control. Boost is rock solid on my high-resolution boost gauge with peak recall... no spikes, no dips, just a smooth curve like it should be, and the ECU never had to close the throttle to keep down any spikes. Its not a "trick", its not doing something that will "tip off" the ecu to know you are tuned... its just controlling boost accurately enough that the ecu almost never has to jump in and close the throttle, same as stock.

I can't see how throttle closure is a good thing if a car like mine has pretty much NONE while stock.

Just my 2c on the issue.... I am not a tuner, so this is just my opinion of what I have seen playing around with my obdII logger

So if I order one of these new proceed pnp's, will I get the new dynamic throttle control, described in this thread?
Has anyone posted a dyno on 93 oct with a stock + with only this new proceed?

How does the new JB3 (latest rev) throttle control compare?

[marconi118]

How does the ECU calculate the engine load and decide to close the throttle?

Is it possible to give bad info to the ECU to let him think the load is still under the max limit?

Are you Shiv controlling the throttle directly with your additional box?