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Closed Deck vs Semi Closed Deck vs Open Deck Blocks
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12-30-2008, 11:50 AM | #45 | |
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You all need to realize that the N54 is never going to be a massive HP engine, it does GREAT in being a VERY cheaply (by bmw standards) modable to medium power level engine, with a low HP ceiling. It was not built to go to massive power levels, you want something like that buy a motorsport engine, period. They are built to take it, and will take it. S54 500 wheel all day "stage 2", the new v8 will be putting out 600-700 all day at "stage 1" For reference here's the actual n54 block press photo: The s54: The new v8: And the obviously similar v10: They don't want to upload I'll fix it later
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12-30-2008, 11:51 AM | #46 |
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12-30-2008, 11:56 AM | #47 |
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This puts whichever idiot that said 335i is THE next supra into shame
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12-30-2008, 11:56 AM | #48 |
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Like said I am a newbie but when the thread was originally started there was a picture of a s54 or supposedly s54 I6 with an open deck. And someone then corrected the OP and agreed that the picture was a s54 when indeed he wanted a N54. Sorry for the confusion guys, hope you do understand. Thanks for clearing all that up. And like some have said plain and simple when it comes to BMW if you want a hp monster buy a Motorsport engine they are designed and engineered for much of what can be thrown at it. As some old timers say BULLETPROOF!
To build on the thread the limit still has not been reached but with the turbo upgrades near who knows.
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01 e46 m54 - Current : 14 f10 n26 - Boring & Gone : 15 f30 n26 - Current : 08 e92 n54 - Gone & Missed!!! |
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12-30-2008, 11:59 AM | #49 |
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Fixed that for you.
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12-30-2008, 12:36 PM | #50 |
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LOOl ahhah thanks!!!!! I do not think when I type sometimes.
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Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. - Albert Einstein
01 e46 m54 - Current : 14 f10 n26 - Boring & Gone : 15 f30 n26 - Current : 08 e92 n54 - Gone & Missed!!! |
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12-30-2008, 01:15 PM | #51 |
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12-30-2008, 07:05 PM | #53 |
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If you want to see a true open deck take a look at a 944 engine. The cylinders do not touch period. The 944 S2 and 968 have siamesed cylinders, similar to what the OP posted as 'open deck'.
There was a general feeling in the 944 turbo high boost world that the cylinders could move and cause fretting on the head gasket which might lead to head gasket failure. A good read on high hp from a 2.6 in line six may be found at: http://www.ddurrelltech.com/pcar/exl..._944_600HP.pdf Note that the sleeved 2.6 968 engine produces 600 hp at 24 psi! I think there is still room to go with the N54 There is also the mention of Bob Norwood's 900 hp Doom 944.
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12-31-2008, 02:36 AM | #54 | |
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And for what it's worth, the low r/s ratio means the N54 will have higher piston speeds and higher sidewall loading than an engine with a more preferable r/s. Basically, the rods are too short and the stroke is too long. It's a combination you usually see on economy engines. Performance engines usually have an r/s of at least 1.6:1, with 1.7:1 considered "ideal." To be honest, this engine design is clearly not aimed at performance. The external goodies (turbos, vanos, direct ignition, direct injection) are what make it so powerful. People keep pushing the envelope and talking about turbo upgrades as though the engine has some sort of magical shortblock that can handle unlimited power, but I can tell you right now that engines are going to start blowing if people start shooting for 500whp+. |
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12-31-2008, 10:59 PM | #55 | ||
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As the one of the few other knowledgible posters already mentioned, I've heard often of poorly tuned engines destroying itself at nearly stock levels and saw a stock '97 Cobra run 8 seconds before it blew up at 8800 rpm with about 26 pounds of boost (stock redline is like 6800). I would also agree that i'd expect 500hp to be about the safe limit, but really who knows...???? |
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12-31-2008, 11:29 PM | #56 | |
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Nobody knows. At this point, absolutely everything is speculation. Period.
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01-01-2009, 12:34 AM | #57 | |
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we can all place our bets mine is 450hp the vq35de is an open block, aluminum etc and it's limit is 450hp without internal work that's where I'll place my guesstimate |
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01-01-2009, 04:46 AM | #58 |
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01-01-2009, 05:18 AM | #60 |
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Well, then some folks here are already over the limit.
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01-01-2009, 08:55 AM | #61 | |
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01-02-2009, 01:54 AM | #62 | |
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We're talking about factory shortblocks, not highly modified engines. Besides, the greatest engine series Honda ever designed (B16) had a 1.75 r/s. Many consider that ideal. The B18C line has a slightly worse ratio of 1.58. The bottom of the barrel econo motors (i.e. d-series) had a 1.5 r/s. Good for low end torque, bad for high revs. The only reason Honda people (i.e. me) are able to extract so much power is by using beefy parts and keeping super tight tolerances. Still, the engines that make the power the most easily/safely/reliably are the B16 motors with the good r/s. This isn't speculation so much as common sense. Open deck with a low r/s is bad news. Hondas make power despite this shortcoming, by pouring obscene amounts of money and work into the engines. The specific engine I have in my Honda (with the open deck and 1.52 r/s) starts throwing rods at almost exactly 2x the factory power output with an unmodified shortblock. Applying the same 200% safety factor to the N54, I'm guessing that the engine will give out at 550whp. So I guess maybe it is just speculation, but it's educated speculation! |
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01-02-2009, 02:22 AM | #63 |
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01-02-2009, 02:23 AM | #64 | |
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but the n54 has vanos, direct injection system, and etc more possible limiting factors |
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01-03-2009, 12:04 AM | #65 |
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Actually honda heads are notorious for their flow efficiencies so we really have the DI to depend on
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05-11-2009, 09:24 PM | #66 | |
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agreed, if you were knocking on 93 at 16psi there was something else wrong with the car. My 95vr4 makes 600+ awhp on the DR800's (3000gt guys should know DR ) with 0 knock at all on the stock bottom end. Even before i did the heads and was running the entry level DR turbos with the bone stock tune i had no knock on 91 gas (in vegas) and that was 18-20psi.
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