[trixman]

Originally Posted by jippii ensio

The latest trends in the EU legislation go to the opposite direction than what you have been proposing here. Competition legislation in the private dealership level, ownership rights and unwarranted information gathering are some serious hurdles. Bmw has tried really hard, but has not managed to prevent tuning. I don't see how could they. Technically they could have done that a long time ago, but I'm talking about practice in the real world.

Think it's more to do with BMW finally closing the doors that have been open up until now. This is what I've been told anyway.

Also Jim Conforti seems to agree (copied from another site but relating to the US diesels that are all fitted with the latest encryption... which you will notice nobody has a flash for yet):

"AFAIK, later BMW EDC17 - as all modules are now getting - has no method for flash tuning unless one has possession of the RSA private keys.

Often given the bullshit moniker "tuning protection" - in reality it is simply BMW waking up and closing all the back doors that have allowed tuning on RSA-protected ECUS to date.

Jim"

[tom @ eas]

To detect a flash, the dealer would have to read your DME file, save it as binary, and compare it against one of any number of factory DME tunes (including update files) available for your BMW. Dealers do not have this ability (or equipment) to read your DME and save it as a file, let alone extract all of the various DME program files from within PROGMAN, which is now in the migration towards ISTA/P.

Again, in present form - dealers do not have the proper equipment to detect tunes, only overwrite when prompted.

In a nutshell, short of sending your ECU to Germany, there's no way the dealer can tell. However, If a piggyback is discovered - it's obvious the DME has been tampered with.

These "scare tactics" that from anonymous "sources" only stir up needless propaganda in hopes to create doubt, doing so in a competitor's thread is simply unethical. If this does indeed come to light - we'll cross this road when it's presented.

Whether Flash tune or Piggyback - Dealers aren't going to go on a treasure hunt for modifications unless there is some probable cause for doing so (ie: complaint, warranty claim, etc.). However, if anyone is concerned about dealerships detecting flash tunes, we can flash the DME to stock, and reload the GIAC flash afterwards - this only takes a few moments.

Gentlemen, Stage 2 is coming soon - you will be pleased.

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by trixman

Think it's more to do with BMW finally closing the doors that have been open up until now. This is what I've been told anyway.

Also Jim Conforti seems to agree (copied from another site but relating to the US diesels that are all fitted with the latest encryption... which you will notice nobody has a flash for yet):

"AFAIK, later BMW EDC17 - as all modules are now getting - has no method for flash tuning unless one has possession of the RSA private keys.

Often given the bullshit moniker "tuning protection" - in reality it is simply BMW waking up and closing all the back doors that have allowed tuning on RSA-protected ECUS to date.

Jim"

Great post. With BMW moving to turbos across their whole fleet, it makes sense to me that they would write some software, or create new hardware to protect themselves from what will be a very large potential threat of false warranty claims.

On the other hand, if you own the car, there should be an opt out so you can play with something you own outright, and sign off on any warranty rights.

[enrita]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

To detect a flash, the dealer would have to read your DME file, save it as binary, and compare it against one of any number of factory DME tunes (including update files) available for your BMW. Dealers do not have this ability (or equipment) to read your DME and save it as a file, let alone extract all of the various DME program files from within PROGMAN, which is now in the migration towards ISTA/P.

Again, in present form - dealers do not have the proper equipment to detect tunes, only overwrite when prompted.

In a nutshell, short of sending your ECU to Germany, there's no way the dealer can tell. However, If a piggyback is discovered - it's obvious the DME has been tampered with.

These "scare tactics" that from anonymous "sources" only stir up needless propaganda in hopes to create doubt, doing so in a competitor's thread is simply unethical. If this does indeed come to light - we'll cross this road when it's presented.

Whether Flash tune or Piggyback - Dealers aren't going to go on a treasure hunt for modifications unless there is some probable cause for doing so (ie: complaint, warranty claim, etc.). However, if anyone is concerned about dealerships detecting flash tunes, we can flash the DME to stock, and reload the GIAC flash afterwards - this only takes a few moments.

Gentlemen, Stage 2 is coming soon - you will be pleased.

Thank you

[Mr. 5]

I just dropped my car off at the dealer.
I spoke with 2 BMW techs, which included the head forman of the Service Dept.

#1. The only SIBs that are out for aftermarket "tuning kits" are SIB 12 20 08 and SIB 12 10 08.
#2. There is nothing at the dealerships anywhere in the world of a device that will determine whether or not the DME was manipulated by aftermarket software. All they have is codes.
#3. There are 2 codes specified in SIB 12 20 08, which are 2D18 and 2D25, which may be stored in the DME. This is a "manipulation protection, max air mass". No tech at this dealership has seen these codes, but if for some reason anyone has this stored on your DME, then you should definitely delete it!
#4. There is nothing embeded in any BMW software that will prevent anyone the ability to delete codes.

[trixman]

By the way, I'm only saying what I've heard over in the UK. Not sure if it will apply to the states.

But just to be clear to the last few posts, it has NOTHING to do with going into a dealership... it is the future ECU's (or software? don't know) that will be fully locked out... Audi too apparently.

But, like anything, if it's made by a man it can be cracked by a man!

[trixman]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

These "scare tactics" that from anonymous "sources" only stir up needless propaganda in hopes to create doubt, doing so in a competitor's thread is simply unethical.

Also if your addressing my post, I actually quoted the guy. Jim has let us down with the release of his product, but I'm guessing he knows more inside knowledge than anyone else.

There's no doubt over the current quality of flashes, I would just be concerned over their long term availability if I were to buy one from new as my car had it on when purchased (although I have just sold my car it has run with a flash for all it's life, probably the same alpina based flash too)... although that is a business decision for the supplying company on how it deals with that, not the final customer, and in no way detracts from the quality of the product.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by trixman

Also if your addressing my post, I actually quoted the guy. Jim has let us down with the release of his product, but I'm guessing he knows more inside knowledge than anyone else.

There's no doubt over the current quality of flashes, I would just be concerned over their long term availability if I were to buy one from new as my car had it on when purchased (although I have just sold my car it has run with a flash for all it's life, probably the same alpina based flash too)... although that is a business decision for the supplying company on how it deals with that, not the final customer, and in no way detracts from the quality of the product.

You brought up some really good points, however - I wasn't referring to your post at all when replying.

[jippii ensio]

We were not talking about the ability to flash
Anyways, EDC 17 can be flashed.

[bamsefar]

This is simple: A non BMW developed and/or approved software inside the ECU is not allowed. If you tamper with the code you lose the warrent - it's pretty clear.

GIAC / EAS / ESS flashes + JB / Proceed piggys and all the rest of the tuning software / hardware is NOT approved (Dinan might be, I have no reference for Dinan so that might be ok ?). So it's simple, alter anything and you lose.

The only thing you are talking about is hiding from been able to be detected.

Please don't insult me saying flash is not detectable. Because it is. There is absolutely no way around that. A piggy back is a different animal, it overrides the signals and might trigger codes (which can be stored in the ECU or any of the other modules available like the light control module ;-) ). It's detectable by for example codes that's been triggered. But it does not manipulate the ECU software.

You could of course remove either tune and by that it might look normal...

But come on, you are all (who is using any sort of none approved tune) tampering with the engine - don't try to say that what you are doing is legal just because you think it's not visible...!

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by bamsefar

This is simple: A non BMW developed and/or approved software inside the ECU is not allowed. If you tamper with the code you lose the warrent - it's pretty clear.

GIAC / EAS / ESS flashes + JB / Proceed piggys and all the rest of the tuning software / hardware is NOT approved (Dinan might be, I have no reference for Dinan so that might be ok ?). So it's simple, alter anything and you lose.

The only thing you are talking about is hiding from been able to be detected.

Please don't insult me saying flash is not detectable. Because it is. There is absolutely no way around that. A piggy back is a different animal, it overrides the signals and might trigger codes (which can be stored in the ECU or any of the other modules available like the light control module ;-) ). It's detectable by for example codes that's been triggered. But it does not manipulate the ECU software.

You could of course remove either tune and by that it might look normal...

But come on, you are all (who is using any sort of none approved tune) tampering with the engine - don't try to say that what you are doing is legal just because you think it's not visible...!

Dinan has no immunity over factory warranty - they replace it with their own.

No one said flashes were undetectable - only that the dealer does not posses the proper equipment to detect them. Tunes (whether piggyback or flash) are not an e-ticket to destroy your engine. If damage is present from parts you have installed, take responsibility and don't expect BMW to foot the bill.

A considerable amount of power can be made safely with right combination of bolt-ons and a proper tune. Be prepared if you decide to push the envelope further.

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by bamsefar

This is simple: A non BMW developed and/or approved software inside the ECU is not allowed. If you tamper with the code you lose the warrent - it's pretty clear.

GIAC / EAS / ESS flashes + JB / Proceed piggys and all the rest of the tuning software / hardware is NOT approved (Dinan might be, I have no reference for Dinan so that might be ok ?). So it's simple, alter anything and you lose.

The only thing you are talking about is hiding from been able to be detected.

Please don't insult me saying flash is not detectable. Because it is. There is absolutely no way around that. A piggy back is a different animal, it overrides the signals and might trigger codes (which can be stored in the ECU or any of the other modules available like the light control module ;-) ). It's detectable by for example codes that's been triggered. But it does not manipulate the ECU software.

You could of course remove either tune and by that it might look normal...

But come on, you are all (who is using any sort of none approved tune) tampering with the engine - don't try to say that what you are doing is legal just because you think it's not visible...!

Legal? If I own the car I can legally do anything I want to it. If something breaks due to something I have done to it, I will pay to fix it. If it is something that I feel was defective I will submit to BMW under warranty claim. There is nothing illegal about any of this. There is nothing illegal about removing mods for service either. At least not here in the USA.

[dr.roro]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Legal? If I own the car I can legally do anything I want to it. If something breaks due to something I have done to it, I will pay to fix it. If it is something that I feel was defective I will submit to BMW under warranty claim. There is nothing illegal about any of this. There is nothing illegal about removing mods for service either. At least not here in the USA.

I don't think warranty fraud is legal. Certainly not moral.

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by dr.roro

I don't think warranty fraud is legal. Certainly not moral.

Nor is it legal to use any modification that alters vehicle emissions or that has not been approved for use on the highway.

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Nor is it legal to use any modification that alters vehicle emissions or that has not been approved for use on the highway.

It's not legal to drive over the speed limit either.
Let's face it, we're guilty in one way or another.

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

It's not legal to drive over the speed limit either.
Let's face it, we're guilty in one way or another.

Calm down, I was responding to Nikolas claiming that anything he did was legal as long as he owned the car. Certainly not true.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Nor is it legal to use any modification that alters vehicle emissions or that has not been approved for use on the highway.

GIAC does not tamper with the emission settings in the ECU keeping them 100% stock.

Guys, let's not let another tune-related thread spin out of control.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

GIAC does not tamper with the emission settings in the ECU keeping them 100% stock.

Guys, let's not let another tune-related thread spin out of control.

+1

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Calm down, I was responding to Nikolas claiming that anything he did was legal as long as he owned the car. Certainly not true.

You can do anything you want legally to your own car. Where did I state that I would be making mods and driving on the street and where did I say I would partake in warranty fraud?

The fact is I can strip every single piece of emmission control device off my car legally. I just can't drive it on the street. I can also legally strip all my mods off before I go to the dealership - there is no law against that.

[Kelvin1000]

Looking forward to seeing what Stage 2 can do!

[Wickede92]

Originally Posted by Kelvin1000

Looking forward to seeing what Stage 2 can do!

+1!!

[marconi118]

does the GIAC flash adress this problem: shift boost delay
Like procede is addressing now:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301968