[SE3P_to_E90]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

If it helps you sleep better, the Nissan GTR, and E90 M3 guys are using Pentosin FFL4. They did some research, and found that their OEM Dual Clutch tranny fluids, were actually repackaged Pentosin FFL4.

Despite Turkeybaster getting a little hotheaded in this, and some other threads, I have to say, his hot-headedness is what's luring me into trying this product. The guy has personal experience, used Pentosin without problems, and is trying to tell everyone that the fluid is ok for our cars despite the lack of specific lists, or whatnot. If he wasn't so sure about the Pentosin Fluid change, he would not post all his experiences, nor would he keep going volleying with those who ultimately just ended up using the OEM fluid. I'm getting my service done this saturday; if my BMW tech (who is also an avid track junky (and whom just happens to work for a BMW dealer)) says that this stuff is no good, then I'll go the OEM route... Otherwise, I'll be sticking w/ the Pentosin ATF 1.

Turkeybaster, I saw on your informative thread (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...smission+fluid) that you used www.rmeuropean.com to order your Pentosin ATF 1... However, the bottles of Pentosin ATF1 that I got from a great Audi tuning shop (who had to order the bottles b/c they were out of stock), are Silver and "newer" looking than the black bottle on your website. If mine is marked as Pentosin ATF1, but does not list anywhere on the bottle that it's the equivalent to Shell M1735.4, do you think that's alright?

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by SE3P_to_E90

Turkeybaster, I saw on your informative thread that you used www.rmeuropean.com to order your Pentosin ATF 1... However, the bottles of Pentosin ATF1 that I got from a great Audi tuning shop (who had to order the bottles b/c they were out of stock), are Silver and "newer" looking than the black bottle on your website. If mine is marked as Pentosin ATF1, but does not list anywhere on the bottle that it's the equivalent to Shell M1735.4, do you think that's alright?

The silver and "newer" ones are just fine. I'm surprised the audi shop didn't try to sell you their amzoil for your trans! If you go OEM though, insist that they put in a shell M 1735.4 part number into your car! It should be a crazy expensive service, and you should also have to work hard to get them to do it in the first place, since they are so trained to regurgitate the corporate "lifetime" lingo. If they end up charging you a cheaper price, like HUN777, then they are putting in E46 trans fluid!

[raceyBMW]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

There are unfortunately a whole bunch of people on our audi forums, who are living proof, that the 6hp with unchanged lifeguard6, dies between 60-80K. HARD evidence my friend, not just my pictures of degraded fluids.

And the 6HP has also been used in the 5-series, 6-series, and 7-series since '03...and we haven't heard many problems out of those.

http://admin.webmakerx.net/images/Si.../autotrans.pdf

Also Audi = quattro (for the most part), which can make a difference in the wear and tear on the transmission (same thing for XI)

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

If it helps you sleep better, the Nissan GTR, and E90 M3 guys are using Pentosin FFL4. They did some research, and found that their OEM Dual Clutch tranny fluids, were actually repackaged Pentosin FFL4.

Well that's easy being that Pentosin's web site specifically states FFL4 was formulated specifically for the Getrag DCT. Unfortunately that's not the case with the 6hp (ATF-1 is not approved use) and I want to know why.

[Turkeybaster115]

Socom, and racy, whats causing your confusion might be your interpretation of the ZF documents. Did you guys notice that there are two different verisons of the TE ML11 list released by ZF? In the 2007 version--> http://www.pentosin.de/flexxtrader/d...ATF%201_GB.pdf there is no reference to what the purpose of the fluids listed is. Each required lifeguard fluid is listed in the tables only. Pentosin ATF1 is not even on the list, instead its only listed as its rebagded cousin: lifeguard5. It then mentions that as time goes on, ZF would make changes to the document. In the 2010 version of the document--> http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_In...011_en0700.pdf You see that much has indeed changed. Firstly, in the last sentence it references the transmission in the last table, 4,5&6hp, and notes that the approved list below is for them. Here pentosin atf1 is listed, along with the LG5 rebadge. I believe that from the 2010 document, it should be clear that all the fluids in the A&B list are approved, and that they can be used as LG substitutes in their 4,5&6HP transmissions.

[raceyBMW]

That's what I thought at first too...until I emailed ZF directly and asked them to clarify if LG6 was 11A or 11B, and was told that it is neither. LG6 is only listed under the TE-ML 11 document, but is neither 11A or 11B...so none in those lists apply as an approved equivalent of LG6. TE-ML 11A and 11B approvals are are only used for the 5HP18 and/or 3HP and 4HP transmissions, per what ZF indicates.

See my other post with the response from ZF.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...2&postcount=31

So basically, just because the fluid is listed on the TE-ML 11 document, does not mean that a specific transmission can take either an 11A or 11B fluid. Note that he does say ths transmissions using 11A/B are not lifetime filled. The LG6 was developed specifically to be "lifetime", however the use of the other oils on that list *might* be fine if you are changing out regularly...but we just don't know that for sure. ZF of course would not give that answer.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

Socom, and racy, whats causing your confusion might be your interpretation of the ZF documents. Did you guys notice that there are two different verisons of the TE ML11 list released by ZF? In the 2007 version--> http://www.pentosin.de/flexxtrader/d...ATF%201_GB.pdf there is no reference to what the purpose of the fluids listed is. Each required lifeguard fluid is listed in the tables only. Pentosin ATF1 is not even on the list, instead its only listed as its rebagded cousin: lifeguard5. It then mentions that as time goes on, ZF would make changes to the document. In the 2010 version of the document--> http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_In...011_en0700.pdf You see that much has indeed changed. Firstly, in the last sentence it references the transmission in the last table, 4,5&6hp, and notes that the approved list below is for them. Here pentosin atf1 is listed, along with the LG5 rebadge. I believe that from the 2010 document, it should be clear that all the fluids in the A&B list are approved, and that they can be used as LG substitutes in their 4,5&6HP transmissions.

Thanks. This list is about the same as the one I have dated 2009. Now if you look at pg 2 of that list you'll see that the box referencing 6HP19 does not reference lubricant classes 11A or 11B. Infact none of the 6spd A/T models reference lubricant classes 11A or 11B as an alternative, but the sections for 4spd and some 5spd above them do. The 6spds only mention LG6, LG6+, LG8. The class mentioning LG5 is interesting because it appears at the bottom of the 11B (Pentosin ATF1 appears here as well). I would have never questioned this if LG6 appeared on the 11B list along with LG5, but as you can see it does not.

Is this a marketing ploy by ZF? Maybe. These companies probably have special agreements with certain manufacturers. For example, I don't think you can buy, retail, Shell M-1375.4. Is it because it's just base stock and ZF requires a specific additive pkg for the LG 5/6/6+/8 ATF types??

All I know is that the more I dig the more questions I end up having.

I'm really not trying to argumentitive(sp?), it's just that the pieces aren't fitting together.

I suppose the million $ question to ZF would be "If I want to change my fluid every 30-50k miles, is it ok to use another fluid off your list that's not LG6?"

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by raceyBMW

That's what I thought at first too...until I emailed ZF directly and asked them to clarify if LG6 was 11A or 11B, and was told that it is neither. LG6 is only listed under the TE-ML 11 document, but is neither 11A or 11B...so none in those lists apply as an approved equivalent of LG6. TE-ML 11A and 11B approvals are are only used for the 5HP18 and/or 3HP and 4HP transmissions, per what ZF indicates.

See my other post with the response from ZF.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...2&postcount=31

So basically, just because the fluid is listed on the TE-ML 11 document, does not mean that a specific transmission can take either an 11A or 11B fluid. Note that he does say ths transmissions using 11A/B are not lifetime filled. The LG6 was developed specifically to be "lifetime", however the use of the other oils on that list *might* be fine if you are changing out regularly...but we just don't know that for sure. ZF of course would not give that answer.

yeah, but who was this guy? probably a customer service rep. Anyhow, he's just saying the exact same thing the dealerships, and ZF distributors, say. Think about it, what do you expect them to say? Legally, they have to disclose alternatives for their fluids, because of situations where the customer doesn't have access to the OEM fluid. Financially, they have a contract with shell to worry about, and fat profit numbers to make, which is why they will "officially" endorse the shell fluid. I came from a honda, and in the instruction manual, it sez to only use the oem trans fluid, but gives a list of alternatives in case of some unforseen event. Like engine fluid, there are alternatives. BMW clearly endorses castrol, Its written right on my engine cover, but I use Total. They have to endorse castrol, because of the contract they have with castrol. In reality, there are several other brand names you can use.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by Socom

Is this a marketing ploy by ZF? Maybe. These companies probably have special agreements with certain manufacturers. For example, I don't think you can buy, retail, Shell M-1375.4. Is it because it's just base stock and ZF requires a specific additive pkg for the LG 5/6/6+/8 ATF types??

We aren't the first group to have this issue. Ealier last decade, Most of the E46 guys on www.e46fanatics.com, didn't change their lifetime fluids. A poll was done recently after all these years, and it clearly showed that there was a high failure rate around 100,000 miles, for those who followed what ZF and the stealership told them, and left the "lifetime" fluid in there. A smaller, brave percentage in the poll changed the fluid, and used Redline D4 ATF, since lifeguard5 was $32 bucks per liter from the stealership. Of that redline group, no failures occured. Because of this they all started using redline ATF, and it is a viable alternative today! What makes our cars so special? lifeguard 5 for 5hp's and lifeguard 6 for 6hp's? where is that written in the bible?

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

We aren't the first group to have this issue. Ealier last decade, Most of the E46 guys on www.e46fanatics.com, didn't change their lifetime fluids. A poll was done recently after all these years, and it clearly showed that there was a high failure rate around 100,000 miles, for those who followed what ZF and the stealership told them, and left the "lifetime" fluid in there. A smaller, brave percentage in the poll changed the fluid, and used Redline D4 ATF, since lifeguard5 was $32 bucks per liter from the stealership. Of that redline group, no failures occured. Because of this they all started using redline ATF, and it is a viable alternative today! What makes our cars so special? lifeguard 5 for 5hp's and lifeguard 6 for 6hp's? where is that written in the bible?

Having owned an E46 I'm well aware of the tendency of some of the A/T's to develop slippage at higher mileages, however I believe it's the result of the lack of fluid changes instead of the fluid itself. The question which we've been debating isn't whether changes are good preventative maintenance but what is an appropriate alternative fluid to LG6 for the 6HP. Pentosin ATF1 isn't one of them. Now there is a chance that with the 6HP being stamped a "lifetime fill" there isn't an alternative fluid which can go "lifetime". Who knows.

Here's a copy of an email I received from pentosin.de.

Dear Mr. Xxxx,

Thank you very much for your email.

Referring to our below stated email we would like to inform you that we also talked internally to our head of the R&D department. Please be informed that our Pentosin ATF 1 is

approved by

a) VIOTH Extended Drain Intervals List of Lubricants H55.6336.3x / DIWA Service Bulletin 013 and 118
b) ZF lubricant class/es TE-ML 11B

Hence our Pentosin ATF 1 meets the requirements and is suitable for 5 HP.

Please be informed that there is no written confirmation for 6 HP, thus we cannot confirm it.

We trust we could help you. In case of any further support, feel free to contact us at any time. Best regards from Hamburg.

mit freundlichen Grüßen / kind regards

[raceyBMW]

LOL, I just received that exact same email for my question to them too.

So basically all of the retailers saying that the Pentosin ATF-1 is equivalent to M-1375.4 are doing so on their own, with no actual proof of that from Pentosin.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by Socom

Having owned an E46 I'm well aware of the tendency of some of the A/T's to develop slippage at higher mileages, however I believe it's the result of the lack of fluid changes instead of the fluid itself.

Lack of fluid changes, which are suggested by the dealerships, and coporate spokes people who you worship. FYI LG5 is claimed to be "lifetime", by ZF.

Originally Posted by Socom

The question which we've been debating isn't whether changes are good preventative maintenance but what is an appropriate alternative fluid to LG6 for the 6HP. Pentosin ATF1 isn't one of them. Now there is a chance that with the 6HP being stamped a "lifetime fill" there isn't an alternative fluid which can go "lifetime". Who knows.

We are debating both toxic ideas.
1. don't ever change the fluid- ZF, and dealership mandate--> BASTARDS
2. Pentosin ATF1 isn't approved for use, despite, it being on the approval list.

Originally Posted by Socom

Here's a copy of an email I received from pentosin.de.
Dear Mr. Xxxx,

Thank you very much for your email.
Referring to our below stated email we would like to inform you that we also talked internally to our head of the R&D department. Please be informed that our Pentosin ATF 1 is
approved by
a) VIOTH Extended Drain Intervals List of Lubricants H55.6336.3x / DIWA Service Bulletin 013 and 118
b) ZF lubricant class/es TE-ML 11B
Hence our Pentosin ATF 1 meets the requirements and is suitable for 5 HP.
Please be informed that there is no written confirmation for 6 HP, thus we cannot confirm it.
We trust we could help you. In case of any further support, feel free to contact us at any time. Best regards from Hamburg.
mit freundlichen Grüßen / kind regards

More dear abby letters. writting to companys gets you "cleaned up" corporate statements. Note that he is saying that there is no "written" confirmation. I wonder if you showed him this document--> http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_In...011_en0700.pdf

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by raceyBMW

LOL, I just received that exact same email for my question to them too. So basically all of the retailers saying that the Pentosin ATF-1 is equivalent to M-1375.4 are doing so on their own, with no actual proof of that from Pentosin.

Ok, let me get in on this act, and write both ZF, and pentosin. I will also show the latter pictures of my OEM 6hP transmission fluids from both my cars after 40K, and 50K respectively. Lets see what these ZF asshats have to say. I will also provide a copy of my e-mail letter to them, to prove, that I'm not trying to win an internet arguement.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

Lack of fluid changes, which are suggested by the dealerships, and coporate spokes people who you worship. FYI LG5 is claimed to be "lifetime", by ZF.



We are debating both toxic ideas.
1. don't ever change the fluid- ZF, and dealership mandate--> BASTARDS
2. Pentosin ATF1 isn't approved for use, despite, it being on the approval list.



More dear abby letters. writting to companys gets you "cleaned up" corporate statements. Note that he is saying that there is no "written" confirmation. I wonder if you showed him this document--> http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_In...011_en0700.pdf

I actually did.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

Ok, let me get in on this act, and write both ZF, and pentosin. I will also show the latter pictures of my OEM 6hP transmission fluids from both my cars after 40K, and 50K respectively. Lets see what these ZF asshats have to say. I will also provide a copy of my e-mail letter to them, to prove, that I'm not trying to win an internet arguement.

I saw your pictures. The look and smell of ATF isn't indicitve of whether it's good or bad. All ATF smells and looks like that after a few thousand miles. You have to have an UOA done to tell you what shape it's in.

Let us know what ZF and Pentosin say.

[raceyBMW]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

Lack of fluid changes, which are suggested by the dealerships, and coporate spokes people who you worship. FYI LG5 is claimed to be "lifetime", by ZF.



We are debating both toxic ideas.
1. don't ever change the fluid- ZF, and dealership mandate--> BASTARDS
2. Pentosin ATF1 isn't approved for use, despite, it being on the approval list.



More dear abby letters. writting to companys gets you "cleaned up" corporate statements. Note that he is saying that there is no "written" confirmation. I wonder if you showed him this document--> http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_In...011_en0700.pdf

1. ZF and BMW both don't say "LIFETIME" as in never change as long as you own the vehicle, they both say change it at ~100k-120k miles....even the ZF document you posted there says to change:

5 and 6-speed as well as 4HP20 automatic transmissions:
ZF 5 and 6-speed as well as the ZF 4HP20 automatic transmissions are filled maintenance-free with specially developed partially synthetic ATF oils. Maintenance-free fills are intended for normal operating conditions. Especially driving at very high operating temperatures can result in accelerated aging or increased wear of ATF oils. It is recommended, in the event of severe operating conditions, such as:
- frequent highway driving in top speed range,
- offensive, sporty driving style,
- frequent trailer operation,
being above average, oil purification (oil change) on automatic transmissions is recommended between 80,000 km and 120,000 km, or
8 years, depending on the load.
In each case, only released ATF oil may be used for oil changes. And oil changes must be performed in accordance with the relevant specifications.

Hell even from BMW's own document
http://admin.webmakerx.net/images/Si.../autotrans.pdf
It says its CBS at around 100k miles.

E90/91/92
325i, 328i, 330i, 335i, All
Page 6 of 7
The transmission fluid has a Condition Based Service interval of approximately 100,000 miles; please refer to S.I. B00 07
02 for further information. Never mix any other oil with this transmission fluid when doing repairs or topping up.
Shell M-1375.4, BMW Part No. 83 22 0 142 516.

2. Again....The Pentosin ATF-1 is on the list for TE-ML 11B.....which is NOT approved for use in the 6HP. 11B oils are just fluids that can be used on the specific transmissions as noted, and are no substitutes for Lifeguardfluid6/Shell M-1375.4....there is NO approved substitute/approval for Lifeguardfluid6/Shell M-1375.4. Now again, that doesn't mean that something else might not work, its just that nothing else is approved.

There are NO approvals for other fluids to work in the 6HP, so there is nothing for other fluid manufacturers to design their fluids to, like there is for the the other ZF trannys (11A / 11B, Dexron III, Mercon V, etc.)

How bout an analogy with the oils...Think of the Lifeguardfluid6 as the ONLY LL-01 oil. BMW says only to use oils with LL-01 approval in the E9x. Now, oils that are approved for LL-98 (or API SM/CF, ACEA A3, B3/B4, etc.) might work, and be just fine...however they are not approved for use in this car. ONLY LL-01 is approved at this time, and that is the same with Lifeguardfluid6 in the 6HP19.

[hun77777]

omg Turkeybaster115, you just keep bring it around the same topic over and over.
it's not even funny how many times i come across people mentioning same links over and over again. it's like this...

"i replaced my tranny fluids with Pentosin ATF. color of ZF lifetime sucks. many people used pentosin on 6hp and i'm good after 10k"
"pentosin is not approved by bmw"
"yes it is"
"no it is not, it's not. zf guy doesn't think so"
"it's on their list"
"it's in zf's approved list for 5hp, but not 6hp. lg6 or bmw oil is only approved for 6hp"
"what do you expect them to say? zf and bmw are greedy bastard and only idiots paying for stealership price"
"uh... rep at pentosin replied the same thing as zf"
"what do you expect him to say? he's only a rep. this is not the fist discussion about this there are many people using this, me being one of THEM. and for 10k i'm fine by far..."

START-OVER

[hun77777]

as many mentioned earlier, i have nothing against aftermarket fluids such as pentosin or RL or castrol or WHATEVER as long as it is within the spec. unlike engine oil (LL01), bmw and zf only approved LG06/OEM, nothing else is OFFICIALLY APPROVED by them, hence i sticked with OEM.

i'm actually glad and appreciate for the fact that you are trying something different but the fact that you used non-approved oil for 10k or 100k is irrelevant here. it could be good reference once more and more people use pentosin or any other aftermarket aft and be fine with it but only time will tell. even after 100k miles later, if it's not officially approved, it's not. whether people actually use and be fine with it or not is not the point.

if zf or bmw makes changes that any aftermarket within spec could be used and if pentosin or any aftermarket atf that is within provided spec, then that's different story.

as many mentioned already, we're trying to see what's the options and now after long discussion, i'm sure people at least now have two choices.

1) stick with zg lg6 or BMW oil and pay high price
2) experiment with aftermarket atf oil at lower cost.

will oem be better than aftermarket? maybe maybe not. as some mentioned, it can not be determined by color or smell. it will requrie some lab testing. will aftermarket atf be fine? maybe maybe not. but you don't have to bash or insult on people who's trying to stick on the safeside.

little side not to my OEM oil debate, part number ending 929 was actually came out to be 1/2 liter measurement for 516 and it was used for pricing purpose.
nvm, please refer this --> http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345598

[SE3P_to_E90]

Despite going back and forth, and being 90% committed to trying out Pentosin ATF1, I contacted my BMW tech today regarding the transmission fluid change... I told him I was going to supply him with 7-8 quarts of Pentosin ATF1, and he was familiar with the product.

While he said that oil (ATF1) was acceptable as a temporary fluid that can be used in an emergency, he highly recommended against using it to drain/fill my transmission fluid. I have to say, based on that response, and his familiarity with the oil, I decided to stick w/ the OEM Shell 1375.4 (or equivalent) that they supply at the dealer. I need to get 7 quarts at $26/liter.

When I go to get my transmission fluid change, I'll be sure to ask why he think the ATF1 is only acceptable as a temporary, in case of emergency, solution.



Still, I have to commend Turkeybaster for his persistence and experience with Pentosin. Unfortunately for me, I'm not much of a maintenance guru, so I guess I'll have to stick w/ the recommended, OEM, stuff -- where it's difficult to find a viable solution.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by SE3P_to_E90

Despite going back and forth, and being 90% committed to trying out Pentosin ATF1, I contacted my BMW tech today regarding the transmission fluid change... I told him I was going to supply him with 7-8 quarts of Pentosin ATF1, and he was familiar with the product.
While he said that oil (ATF1) was acceptable as a temporary fluid that can be used in an emergency, he highly recommended against using it to drain/fill my transmission fluid. I have to say, based on that response, and his familiarity with the oil, I decided to stick w/ the OEM Shell 1375.4 (or equivalent) that they supply at the dealer. I need to get 7 quarts at $26/liter.
When I go to get my transmission fluid change, I'll be sure to ask why he think the ATF1 is only acceptable as a temporary, in case of emergency, solution. Still, I have to commend Turkeybaster for his persistence and experience with Pentosin. Unfortunately for me, I'm not much of a maintenance guru, so I guess I'll have to stick w/ the recommended, OEM, stuff -- where it's difficult to find a viable solution.

I don't care what fluid you use mate. I'm even going to try amzoil ATF next, since my mechanic swears by it based on countless changes he's done with it. But heed my warning; MAKE SURE that whatever oil they sell you at the dealership is from the part number 83-22-0-142-516! I originally tried to get this fluid, at both the BMW, and Audi dealerships, and after a long arguement with them and the sales manager, they finally agreed to sell it to me at $60:00 per liter! This is the same cost the ZF distributors in my state quoted me. I don't see how you guys who go to the dealership, are getting it at anything less per liter, because that is what the dealership pays the distributors! How can they take that kind of financial loss? Unless they are giving you E46(83-22-0-406-929???) or some other transmission oil.

[F32Fleet]

I spoke to the Pentosin rep about their ATF1 (older German fellow).

Cliff notes:

He recommended that OEM fluid be used when changing the fluid prior to 50k miles in order to preserve warranty, and their ATF1 would be fine for doing post warranty changes within resonable change intervals.

Although I kick myself for not asking him if the reason why their literature states ATF1was not approved for the ZF 6HP was due to possible confusion with the "lifetime" moniker my impression is, by how this was explained to me, that was the case.






His opinion was that the 6HP whould last ~200-250k miles with normal ATF changes.

[Bcube]

Originally Posted by Socom

I spoke to the Pentosin rep about their ATF1 (older German fellow).

Cliff notes:

He recommended that OEM fluid be used when changing the fluid prior to 50k miles in order to preserve warranty, and their ATF1 would be fine for doing post warranty changes within resonable change intervals.

Although I kick myself for not asking him if the reason why their literature states ATF1was not approved for the ZF 6HP was due to possible confusion with the "lifetime" moniker my impression is, by how this was explained to me, that was the case.






His opinion was that the 6HP whould last ~200-250k miles with normal ATF changes.

The Castrol USA website lists their Import Multi-Vehicle ATF as being recommended for Shell 1375.4 applications. Although, this fluid has only approval for OE Ford Mercon V substitution.

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp...s_ImportMV.pdf

However, I don't see any "extended fill interval" language on their website and looking at what they consider normal fluid changes of 15K to 30K miles is rather amusing. At 15K mile change intervals, I think I could use my piss as as an effective automatic transmission fluid. It would be the cheapest price of all and a great excuse to the wife for drinking a few cases of beer.