[PMP]

Originally Posted by ScheerSpeed

the thing is, oversteer (my personal preference) is better than understeer. im just not a fan of computers interacting with my driving, thats all. but i understand that for more unexperienced drivers the DTC can save lives (and cars). im just giving my personal opinion on the matter.

I think I understand what you are saying. I tend to agree -- understeer just feels like a bad situation but oversteer is easier to correct and control.

You have a lot more experience than the average driver - have you considered just turning the traction control off?

I'd be afraid to drive that way but you've done a lot of performance driving. Maybe it results in the car behaving in a way that isn't safe for you.

[shimshimhada]

People need to read through the entire thread before making posts.

[Chio]

Originally Posted by DrGP

This would have Never occurred with the A4 and quattro. RWD and wet road conditions can sometimes surprise even the most accomplished driver. I also believe that the DTC system is designed for dummies. As much as I probably will be ordering the 335i coupe. it is for just the situation that you describe that gives me second thoughts and makes me wonder if I would not be better off with the 335xi sedan that will be available in March. But I really like the styling of the coupe better and I can't wait until 08 for the new car.

when i had my S4 this could happen. I had it alot on a wet track. and wet roads!!

[ScheerSpeed]

Originally Posted by PMP

I think I understand what you are saying. I tend to agree -- understeer just feels like a bad situation but oversteer is easier to correct and control.

You have a lot more experience than the average driver - have you considered just turning the traction control off?

I'd be afraid to drive that way but you've done a lot of performance driving. Maybe it results in the car behaving in a way that isn't safe for you.

i usually do turn it off, i had just forgot that one time.

[JohnnyBQuik]

It seems that what you tried to do was to trail brake the car. This is a technique where you brake hard into a corner forcing more weight onto the front outside tire increasing its grip. On dry pavement this allows higher corner entrance speeds that would normally result in understeer. By pressing hard on the brake as you are beginning to understeer, you load the front outside tire allowing you to get through the corner faster. This doesn't work when the car is hydroplaning. The only way to stop a hydroplane skid is to slow the vehicle below the hydroplane threshold allowing the tires to make contact with the road. This is likely what DTC did and what saved you. Btw, the beast shown below tends to snap oversteer in corners as boost comes on. The turbos on the 335i are a vast improvement over the single 20 psi snail on the Esprit. I've done more 4 wheel drifts on the track (and a couple of times on public roads) than I care to admit.

[ScheerSpeed]

i wasnt hydroplaning, and i was not trail braking. i did not push the brake pedal hard, just a light brush on the brakes. what im saying is, that i had the corner fine UNTIL DTC kicked on. thats all.

[astra]

i went a little to fast around a corner that had alot of gravel on the road, and the dsc kicked in, and i ended up well and truley on the wrong wide of the road... it was just lucky for me that there was no one coming the other way... stupid dsc, i drive with it off alot now

[Fraggy]

I never even get my DSC/DTC to come on. I like to be fully in traction at all times.

[Master Deep]

I guess if you have the experience, turn DSC off. But honestly, slow down in the rain on curves. The 40mph speed limit is for the dry, yes i know it's more for cars that can't handle for shit, but still. Don't try to push it too much in the rain. In the dry you can do whatever you want.

[850CSi]

I've noticed that when DTC is activated, it tends to delay the point at which DSC will kick in to save your ass.

[850CSi]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBQuik

It seems that what you tried to do was to trail brake the car. This is a technique where you brake hard into a corner forcing more weight onto the front outside tire increasing its grip. On dry pavement this allows higher corner entrance speeds that would normally result in understeer. By pressing hard on the brake as you are beginning to understeer, you load the front outside tire allowing you to get through the corner faster. This doesn't work when the car is hydroplaning.

You learn something new every day...

I need to go to performance driving school.

[visor]

Originally Posted by 850CSi

I've noticed that when DTC is activated, it tends to delay the point at which DSC will kick in to save your ass.

From what I remember about DTC if it is selected, it works up to a certain speed only (30 mph?) after which DSC will kick in if needed but seemingly less aggressively than DSC on. Reason is that DTC is supposed to be used for low speed low traction conditions (eg. getting out of a snow bank) where DSC would completely prevent any motion at all.

This info is somewhere in the manual, just search it.

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by 850CSi

You learn something new every day...
I need to go to performance driving school.

Read Ross Bentley's books. They're excellent. I think there are 6 of them, but the first one covers everything a non-track junkie needs to know.

[Snakeii]

Originally Posted by ScheerSpeed

i wsa driving tonight on this on-ramp going about 45mph in the rain. i hit a puddle. the car begins to understeer, which i counterreacted by giving a slight tap to the break pedal, thus resulting in a slide rather than a understeer situation. i had the slide controlled, i would have definetly been able to hold it for the whole ramp. DTC kicks in. my two outside tires near lock up, and i go sliding twoards the guardrail. (there was about 3feet of grass inbetween the road and guardrail.) and i end up with the guardrail going right under my mirror i came so close to hitting it its not even funny. BMW's DTC is the only thing i really dont like about the car apart from the run-flat tires. i have driven audi a4's and g35's, and their traction control is much more "allowing" than that of BMW's. with the DTC on. and not the standard traction control, its not too bad, but i prefer to drive without ANY computer interaction with how i drive.

the reason u slid because you were aquaplaining and you should NEVER hit the break just take your foot off the gas, this way the weight to the car doesnt shift causing you to slide or spin, secondly i agree the bmw dtc and tsc is abaslootly crap, i never drive with tsc or tsc on due to how bad it is, it has recently kept me out of hospital not having it on it it was on i would ahve gone off the side of a verge (about 7ft) then into aload of trees and a reasonable speed due to desil on the road as it is i have writen my 330i off but im not injerd part form a couple of brouses,

Originally Posted by ScheerSpeed

i wasnt hydroplaning, and i was not trail braking. i did not push the brake pedal hard, just a light brush on the brakes. what im saying is, that i had the corner fine UNTIL DTC kicked on. thats all.

you say u wernt hydroplaining well i dont belive this for one second due to the fact u understeerd alot, you may not have know u were but the curcamstances u said the car starting to slide one u hit the breakes is what ahppens when u r "hydroplaining" you should just slow down a bit it doesnt sound like you ahve full controll of your car in situations like this take it easy and dont drive so fast in the wet.

yours Paul

[Snakeii]

Originally Posted by Fraggy

I never even get my DSC/DTC to come on. I like to be fully in traction at all times.

i dont belive that at all, everyone who has driven a e90 or and form of the new bmws WILL see the light come on, it comes on for pulling out of junctions at 3 mph...

[Turbo Squid]

It's situations like these that make me eager to order my 335 and pick it up at the Performance Center, where I can get some experience behind the wheel and get familiar with the car's limits. My first real car (Jetta) FWD, then the Cooper S FWD. I did a 3-day session at the Russel Racing School @ Infineon Raceway and I learned alot from it. Although I'm still young, I consider, and I guess am considered (by friends) to have really fast reflexes behind the wheel. I can thank my dad for that for always having taught me how to properly push a car in adverse weather conditions. (He raced Rally in France for a very long time (Renault 5's and such) before switching to track with his Aston Martins.)



One thing I noticed about the Mini (Run-Flats) and the Jetta (Non Run-Flat) is that the handling in the rain is dramatically crappier with Run-Flat tires. I was amazed at the difference it made whenever roads were wet. The limits of the Run-Flat tire change like crazy... That's all I wanted to say, cuz I don't have much experience in rear-wheel drive besides the ML55 and X5 which don't count because they are the pachyderms of the "DTM" world.

[Fastdriverinca999]

Excuse me... the reason this happened is b/c he disengaged DSC and was driving with the DTC on. If he had left the DSC fully on, this would not have happened. You can still crash with DTC on but it is virtually impossible to crash if you have DSC fully engaged... unless you are a complete idiot

[steveff4]

I only read the first page of this thread, but I can't help but call the OP out. If he was understeering due to excessive speed or hydroplaning, tapping the brakes is not the way to correct the situation. Lifting off of the throttle or giving less steering input would have been proper responses. So his original response is particularly surprising since he's spouting about his driving skills. Blaming it on the DTC is as funny as the WRX/STi guys complaining about how the stock tires nearly killed them...

[ScheerSpeed]

the way i figured to get out of the situation was to induce a slide which for me is much easier to control than a understeer. and thats why i braked to induce a slide. and i was controlling the car around the corner, and i would not have gone off the road at all if it not had been for the traction control.

[whippersnapper]

too funny

[romeo26]

Originally Posted by ScheerSpeed

i usually do turn it off, i had just forgot that one time.

so this is not driver error??!!
to me it seems like it.
you have to remember that this is street not a track, streets arnt as groomed as tracks are. i agree though hitting the break was the right thing to do if you wanted to slide. but i think you should save that sort of stuff for the track, you should be more responsable, what if you were in a slide and some one was there that you didnt see? you just indangered your life as well as others. i too like to take onramps going 50+ in my e30 ocasionally kicking out the rear, but i only do that if iam the only one there, and if its dry. i probally dont have racing experiance but i do drive in the canyons and mountain passways alot, only at nite though were you can see the oncomming trafic's light a couple hairpins away. i do know how to handle my car, so dont say i dont know crap about driving.

Originally Posted by steveff4

the WRX/STi guys complaining about how the stock tires nearly killed them...

those guys just think that since they have awd they will never lose traction, awd doesnt do crap if you dont know the limit of the car and tire's.

[ScheerSpeed]

Originally Posted by romeo26

so this is not driver error??!!
to me it seems like it.
you have to remember that this is street not a track, streets arnt as groomed as tracks are. i agree though hitting the break was the right thing to do if you wanted to slide. but i think you should save that sort of stuff for the track, you should be more responsable, what if you were in a slide and some one was there that you didnt see? you just indangered your life as well as others. i too like to take onramps going 50+ in my e30 ocasionally kicking out the rear, but i only do that if iam the only one there, and if its dry. i probally dont have racing experiance but i do drive in the canyons and mountain passways alot, only at nite though were you can see the oncomming trafic's light a couple hairpins away. i do know how to handle my car, so dont say i dont know crap about driving.




those guys just think that since they have awd they will never lose traction, awd doesnt do crap if you dont know the limit of the car and tire's.

it was late at night and i was the only one there