[RiXst3r]

Originally Posted by Terry Burger

You have a basic misunderstanding. Also I should note the TT and PROCede are almost identical in how they add more fuel. The difference is the PROCede also clamps the O2 sensor signals slightly to trick the ECU in to putting in a little extra fuel.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Wrong.

+1, terry, you are wrong... shiv has stated many times that the PROcede activly adjusts the outputs from the factory closed loop system to adjust AFR, the TT just rely's on the factory system with a few tweaks on the T-MAP.

[OpenFlash]

Terry-- I don't know why you chose to use that emoticon. You continually display your lack of understand with regards to how the PROcede works. And you seem to spread this misinformation with absolutely no hesitation. To this day, I'm still not sure why you do this.

shiv

ps. thanks rixt3r.. you beat me to it

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Terry-- I don't know why you chose to use that emoticon. You continually display your lack of understand with regards to how the PROcede works. And you seem to spread this misinformation with absolutely no hesitation. To this day, I'm still not sure why you do this.

shiv

ps. thanks rixt3r.. you beat me to it

Here is what I said:

"Also I should note the TT and PROCede are almost identical in how they add more fuel. The difference is the PROCede also clamps the O2 sensor signals slightly to trick the ECU in to putting in a little extra fuel."

So you're saying the PROCede doesn't clamp the O2 sensors to change the "observed" AFR? I choose the because I think you've gotten a little too caught up in your own marketing BS.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

+1, terry, you are wrong... shiv has stated many times that the PROcede activly adjusts the outputs from the factory closed loop system to adjust AFR, the TT just rely's on the factory system with a few tweaks on the T-MAP.

Heh OK, I'll play along. I'm also suggesting both devices rely on the factory closed loop AFR target system. I'm suggesting Shiv is slightly clamping the O2 signal below 5000rpm and above 6500rpm to "trick" the ECU in to adding or taking out a little more fuel. Maybe someone with a more technical understanding of how the PROCede works, such as you, and enlighten me.

[RiXst3r]

Originally Posted by Terry Burger

Here is what I said:

"Also I should note the TT and PROCede are almost identical in how they add more fuel. The difference is the PROCede also clamps the O2 sensor signals slightly to trick the ECU in to putting in a little extra fuel."

So you're saying the PROCede doesn't clamp the O2 sensors to change the "observed" AFR? I choose the because I think you've gotten a little too caught up in your own marketing BS.

Originally Posted by Terry Burger

Heh OK, I'll play along. I'm also suggesting both devices rely on the factory closed loop AFR target system. I'm suggesting Shiv is slightly clamping the O2 signal below 5000rpm and above 6500rpm to "trick" the ECU in to adding or taking out a little more fuel. Maybe someone with a more technical understanding of how the PROCede works, such as you, and enlighten me.

IMHO, its far from identical, its totally different. The Turbo Tuner doesnt really even control fuel, sure, it manages a slight tweak, but with the PROcede, they have FULL control, at all RPM's, and thats not just with a clamp, its completely re-mapped. This is why the TT hits bottlenecks that limits its power, where the PROcede is able to squeek it all out, overcoming all bottlenecks of the stock engine control unit's parameters.

The 2 products are really completely different in the way they acheive a tune... sure they both trick the ECU, but they do it in VERY different ways, which is why they really cant be compared in that sense. The only thing you can compare is results, and effects. They are 2 different products, for 2 different markets... even jeff at eurobahn has refered many people to the PROcede when they ask for more power.

in defense of shiv, that was not marketing BS, its the truth... shiv is an engineer, not a salesman

[j|rz44]

^^^makes good sense to me....
but, does that mean that the TT is harmful to the 335i?
thats what this all comes down to!

thx

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

IMHO, its far from identical, its totally different. The Turbo Tuner doesnt really even control fuel, sure, it manages a slight tweak, but with the PROcede, they have FULL control, at all RPM's, and thats not just with a clamp, its completely re-mapped. This is why the TT hits bottlenecks that limits its power, where the PROcede is able to squeek it all out, overcoming all bottlenecks of the stock engine control unit's parameters.

The 2 products are really completely different in the way they acheive a tune... sure they both trick the ECU, but they do it in VERY different ways, which is why they really cant be compared in that sense. The only thing you can compare is results, and effects. They are 2 different products, for 2 different markets... even jeff at eurobahn has refered many people to the PROcede when they ask for more power.

in defense of shiv, that was not marketing BS, its the truth... shiv is an engineer, not a salesman

You're covering too many topics here, but they both do exactly the same thing. They manipulate the MAP signal to produce more boost, and rely on the factory closed loop fuel system to add in the bulk of additional fuel.

The PROCede also clamps the O2 signal to add in more additional fuel, and it clamps the CPS or some timing signal to add in/take out timing. The TT clamps the IAT sensor to pull timing.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by jmramos44

^^^makes good sense to me....
but, does that mean that the TT is harmful to the 335i?
thats what this all comes down to!

thx

The long and the short is in my opinion both are harmful, afterall there is no free lunch, but each appears to be within the specs of what it offers. The TT offers a lower boost increase due to the limited flexability of fueling/timing adjustments, but it appears to be safe.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Terry Burger

The PROCede also clamps the O2 signal to add in more additional fuel, and it clamps the CPS or some timing signal to add in/take out timing. The TT clamps the IAT sensor to pull timing.

No matter how insistant you are, you're still wrong. I wish there was an emoticon that properly expressed my feelings right now.

[derrick]

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

The factory wideband system sniffs out the actual AFR and adjusts it to hit stock targets, if you add more air, it automatically adds more fuel. The thing that most people dont like, is that it stays at stock AFR's... The PROcede uses richer than stock AFR's, which shiv's says is neccessary to keep the engine cool. Keep in mind, its a Ratio... so the more air you add, the car WILL add more fuel, not like upping the boost on a non closeloop system... which will cause leaner than stock AFR's.

The TT hides the fact that boost is above stock levels, the ECU sees stock boost. The TT also tweaks the IAT sensor to trick the ECU into adjusting timing, and it does all this according to load. It also has built in protection circuitry to cut back boost if it gets too hot, and also to avoid boost spikes. (this is all info taken from the other threads)

Now if this is safe or not is subjective... many people think its fine at these power levels, and is proven by the fact that there is no detonation or pinging, and engine temps remain unchanged. Other's think that this device is completely unsafe...

I am offering completely unbaised info towards both products. Personally, since my car is a lease, and currently has frequent trips to the dealer, I have the TT... If I owned my car, and I didnt need to take it in often, I would definatly have the PROcede.

GOOD POST.

[derrick]

editted

[j|rz44]

Originally Posted by derrick

Another good post.. This is why my TT came off.

now is your case an isolated case..
or have other people noticed the same effects... (via dyno)?

thx

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

No matter how insistant you are, you're still wrong. I wish there was an emoticon that properly expressed my feelings right now.

So rather than waste your time and mine why don't you just state where I made the error?

[jon@themshop]

Originally Posted by jmramos44

I asked him here...
wanted to hear his thoughts as to jon@"reputable"Mshops input...
thats all...
no bashing! just knowledge

Exactly.. just information and opinions are all appreciated. Things just turn ugly when bashing starts to happen.

So let's all just think about this...
In a manifold fuel injection system, which operates at about 3-5BAR, the fuel comes out of the injector as a fine mist and goes to intake valve, however, because of the intake valve in the way some fuel hits the valve and condenses on it. Some of it may also hit walls of the manifold and/or in the cylinder head.
You can clearly see on this picture the injector on the left and when fuel is sprayed it'll hit the wall of the intake ports and the intake valve. Not all of it goes into the combustion chamber. This is the leading cause of carbon deposits.



On BMW's High Precision Injection, the injector sits directly on top of the cylinder head and sprays a mist of fuel on top of the piston. The fuel pressure is 200 BAR! Because of the high pressure fuel is evaporated and atomized in the combustion chamber, which provides a "cooling effect" on combustion. A cooler combustion chamber allows an increase in air density, which allows for more available oxygen. In addition, cooler combustion allows for an increase in compression ratio which equates to improve efficiency and engine power.

By injecting fuel directly into the combustion chamber, there is less possibility for fuel to condense or accumulate on the manifold walls or back of the intake valves. This results in less fuel needed to achieve the desired A/F ratio.




Because of this setup most of the fuel is burned up and very
little HCs are coming out of the exhaust valve. "Direct injection can run leaner and get away from lean A/F ratios. No fuel is wasted in the intake manifold or on back of the intake valve so no need to make it richer" (Karl Hugh-Head Engineer of AA Tuning)

CLICK HERE to view a video about BMW's Direct injection technology. Click on video since it'll take you to the photo tab.

[tek818]

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

I dont know about you, but if I got a check engine light, I would pop off the TT immediatly...

I got a check engine light after my last race with Driver72 (Procede vs. TT video). Shut off car and it cleared; but I didn't want to race again after that. The only thing I might have done is just barely hit redline; this wouldn't trigger a CEL, would it?

[RiXst3r]

Originally Posted by AB Tek 818

I got a check engine light after my last race with Driver72 (Procede vs. TT video). Shut off car and it cleared; but I didn't want to race again after that. The only thing I might have done is just barely hit redline; this wouldn't trigger a CEL, would it?

I would call Jeff about that... nobody should be seeing CEL's caused by the TT

[boostedtwin]

I have redlined mine with no CEL's at all, you should check on it.

[tek818]

Would the c-reader that comes with the procede be able to tell me what happened? The CEL cleared when I "rebooted" the car. I mentioned it to Jeff, but got no response regarding that issue.

[BavarianRocket]

Originally Posted by DIRKD

^We know how well your product performs (because of your million threads on it). I'm wondering if anyone else finds it annoying that you constantly invade TT threads and bash it.

I agree..... I don't own either and probably won't until there is a LONG term record of what sort of enhanced engine wear is involved.

I am sick of all of the SHIV pole smokers always chiming in. It is obvious that the PROcede is an awesome piece of performance enhancement. And yes SHIV obviously knows his stuff.

But just because someone starts a thread about the TT it doesn't mean that SHIV's army has to invade and ask his opinion and so forth... obviously he is going to be pro PROcede..... pun intended......

[BoostedBMW]

Originally Posted by AB Tek 818

Would the c-reader that comes with the procede be able to tell me what happened? The CEL cleared when I "rebooted" the car. I mentioned it to Jeff, but got no response regarding that issue.

Yes, the c-reader is just a code reader, its not procede specific. You should have definitely pulled the code and seen what it was for instead of erasing it. I got one on ebay for 30 bucks shipped, its definitely something good to have.

[Chio]

I took my student out at a DE for a couple of laps and i never saw a CEL! I have also run my car VERY hard and it runs great

[j|rz44]

Originally Posted by BavarianRocket

I agree..... I don't own either and probably won't until there is a LONG term record of what sort of enhanced engine wear is involved.

I am sick of all of the SHIV pole smokers always chiming in. It is obvious that the PROcede is an awesome piece of performance enhancement. And yes SHIV obviously knows his stuff.

But just because someone starts a thread about the TT it doesn't mean that SHIV's army has to invade and ask his opinion and so forth... obviously he is going to be pro PROcede..... pun intended......

It seems that jon@theMshop's (thanks jon for your knowledge)input didnt warrent a reply from Shiv....
so it must have been a valid point....
That was the point in all this....

Enjoy your modding!
I sure the hell am
I just dont know what im going to do with myself when the car is complete...