[vasillalov]

No anger. I call this the "echo effect". Whatever I hear, this is how I respond. If this was a joke, then take it back as a joke.

I am not advocating for GIAC alone. I am advocating for flash tunes in general. Some are better some are worse and that goes with any product out there.

For the most part I've been keeping my mouth shut but I think this thread is worth my time so I'll share some more of my thoughts. I hope you will have the patience and the understanding to read all this:

Here are the fundamental problems that I think ALL piggybacks have:

* They are constantly guessing! Some read the sensor signals directly, some indirectly, some are able to tap into the CAN bus, some not. In the end of the day, all piggybacks treat the ECU as a black box. They all guess how the ECU will behave. NONE, I repeat, NONE of the piggy backs know EXACTLY how the ECU algorithms work. They constantly have to guess what the ECU will do because their engineers have no access to the actual programming that was implemented in those units. Therefore they guess by observation and experimentation. While those are very good damn guesses, they are still just that, guesses.

* As a computer engineer it is a bit odd for me to say this, but I am a big proponent to mechanics. Mechanics are more direct. There is nothing there to be processed via capacitors, resistors, nothing has to be interpreted. In simple mechanics, you push on one end of a lever and the other end moves INSTANTLY! Adding electronics to mechanics usually generates good results, but there are cases where electronics add a lag. Example: our cars have drive-by-wire throttle systems. You push on the gas pedal, the pedal assembly interprets the mechanical move of the pedal and creates an electric signal. That signal travels to the ECU, gets interpreted, and then the ECU sends another signal to the throttle body actuator motor which in turns translates that to a mechanical movement and finally, the throttle butterfly is opened or closed. All this process of conversion creates a lag. I hate that. I so much prefer the instant throttle response you get from the simple throttle cable.

By adding a piggy back to your system, you are essentially adding yet another step in the electronics where electrical signals have to be intercepted, interpreted, passed through guessing algorithms and aggression algorithms then handed off to the ECU for further processing. Essentially you are increasing the parasitic delay caused by electronics. This is one reason why ECU flashes feel smoother and more responsive than piggy backs. ...and that's not just with our cars. This is true for all cars.

* Somehow, I have a big problem with the developers of the piggy back units when they are essentially testing their maps and logic on customer cars. Closed beta testing is OK, the rest of the stuff is mostly alpha releases. You may be OK with running a software that constantly needs refinement because you like to be on the bleeding edge. No doubt, the piggybacks offer you just that: the bleeding edge of tuning for our cars since, according to some dyno charts, they produce the most power. I for one appreciate when a company takes their time to fine tune their product before it is sold.

[themyst]

E90 or E92 N54, whats the difference honestly? I think they weigh the same.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Austin@GIAC

As someone who speaks with quite a few GIAC customers directly, 99% is a disgustingly large exaggeration. There are a very small number of customers who want a higher power race map to run solely at the drag strip. To date, every single stage 2+ customer that daily drives with this map has been quite satisfied. Most of the people on here who are talking about wanting more power do not have any experience with our flash at all, they are simply keyboard tuning.

So what your saying is your customers like slow cars but buy products to simply go a little faster. Way to live in the right lane!

Let's not make this a pissing contest now, but I doubt your representation of your customers and non customers and my representation of your tune are both being exaggerated in ways to benefit ourselves.

In order to improve sales, (being that your current customers are "happy going slow"), you might want to consider adding other things to your tune, like the option for high boost. The n54 platform and upgraded turbos and a need for more boost is coming, I'd hate for you to miss the boat on potential clients.

Its easy to please a customer that has only tried one tune, yours perhaps. Try please someone with the experience of more then one other tune already under the belt.

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Customers have choices. Usually, most impulsive consumers believe that the more they get (bigger food portion, bigger sized drink, bigger car, bigger house and in this case bigger horse power number) is more important than having a higher quality product. To me flashing a few lights on the dash while changing maps is as appealing as a dog poop on a hot day when I know that my ECU is constantly getting tricked by the piggyback tune... Or that my tune can't do jack shit for changing the algorithm in which the engine coolant pump is operating...

All companies exist to stay in business, that I admit. Few companies manufacture products based on a vision or an ideal. GIAC is not here to claim the trophy of the highest horsepower number or the highest torque number. Neither is DINAN. However, their products deliver consistency, every time, all the time! For someone who intends to drive their car for as long as they can, consistency is the most important thing.

Personally, if I have to choose between consistent delivery of 60 whp from a flash tune and peaky, inconsistent 80 whp from a piggy, I'd take the 60 whp any day! ...but to each his own. Also, for the record, my car still has no tune, so I am not biased as someone who already owns one.

You must be in the stone age, or havnt done enough reading. So far everything you said related to "piggy back" tunes is information from like 1998.

It's amazing how this "ancient technology" of a piggy back tune has so much power not only peaked but under the curve as well.
I said it before, I'll say it again, get with the program.

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by themyst

E90 or E92 N54, whats the difference honestly? I think they weigh the same.

e92 is a bit lighter (~50 pounds ?

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

In order to improve sales, (being that your current customers are "happy going slow"), you might want to consider adding other things to your tune, like the option for high boost. The n54 platform and upgraded turbos and need for more boost is coming, I'd hate for you to miss the boat on potential clients.

I think the "GIAC Stage 2+ is slow" tune that is playing in this thread is a bit like the fox looking at sour grapes.

I really do not find a 420whp tune at 16.8psi which does 11.8s 1/4 and wins multiple circuit races as being "slow". To get this power out of a JB3 or Procede, you REALLY have to crank things up to the point where you don't sleep well at night thinking of what could happen to your engine/turbos/etc. And running such a cranked up car at a circuit track is a bit out of question, in my opinion.

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I think the "GIAC Stage 2+ is slow" tune that is playing in this thread is a bit like the fox looking at sour grapes.

I really do not find a 420whp tune at 16.8psi which does 11.8s 1/4 and wins multiple circuit races as being "slow". To get this power out of a JB3 or Procede, you REALLY have to crank things up to the point where you don't sleep well at night thinking of what could happen to your engine/turbos/etc. And running such a cranked up car at a circuit track is a bit out of question, in my opinion.

BINGO!

[stressdoc]

Judging from the past success of Dinan and BMW Performance, it would seem that reliability and moderate performance are a priority for many buyers. I see GIAC as fitting into a niche in between BMW Performance (and the vacuum left by Dinan) on the one hand, and the more 1/4 mile oriented Procede/JB group.

The range, in terms of comfort with risk and concern with 1/4 mile, is something like:
JB+ BMWPerformance Dinan1&2 GIAC I&II ProcedeV4 JB3

Meth users are at the far right. DPs and FMICs start in the middle.

What we have are lots of great options. To each their own. Personally I wish there was a GIAC dealer near to me so I could test it out. There isn't -- GIAC will primarily appeal to the dense markets on the coasts with good service. The other interesting potential component of the GIAC niche is for track rather than the drag strip. Not sure how that is going to work out, look forward to seeing results.

[stressdoc]

Judging from the past success of Dinan and BMW Performance, it would seem that reliability and moderate performance are a priority for many buyers. I see GIAC as fitting into a niche in between BMW Performance (and the vacuum left by Dinan) on the one hand, and the more 1/4 mile oriented Procede/JB group.

The range, in terms of comfort with risk and concern with 1/4 mile, is something like:
JB+ BMWPerformance Dinan1&2 GIAC I&II ProcedeV4 JB3

Meth users are at the far right. DPs and FMICs start in the middle.

What we have are lots of great options. To each their own. Personally I wish there was a GIAC dealer near to me so I could test it out. There isn't -- GIAC will primarily appeal to the dense markets on the coasts with good service. The other interesting potential component of the GIAC niche is for track rather than the drag strip. Not sure how that is going to work out, look forward to seeing results.

I also look forward to blind tests, where the tester does not know if the car has a GIAC flash or a ProcedeV4. My guess is that the two would be hard to distinguish, particularly for a tester without prior experience with either.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

BINGO!

What bingo, there is no bingo.

YOU GUYS ARE NOT DOING YOUR RESEARCH.

I even posted it no more then 2 pages ago a comparison VS a Procede car with stock midpipes and stock exhaust VS a Full Bolt on, bigger DP, Bigger Intercooler, Full Exhaust GIAC car.

The Delta was larger.... (nevermind that the power under the curve was more as well).

When you guys catch up on your reading, let me know, repeating myself just got boring.

I sleep fine daily driving 17 PSI, you guys clearly have no experience in the tuning world, especially one outside of BMW. Get some hands on experience with more then one car, do your OWN tuning,then you guys can learn how real cars work.

Full ignition from 4000 RPM to redline. 17 PSI tapering to 16.

Call me when your mickey mouse tune does that.

[themyst]

Huh what? I am pushing 0.7 more boost than Mr. 5. Let's say I had the same baseline of 304whp I would have dynoed 423 at 17.5 on stock exhaust and mids. Means I'd be at the same rough power level pushing that 0.7 psi less boost if you want to be picky. I am far from "cranking" my boost up to attain the same power level. If anything I'm making the same power with less mods.

Me: 295whp baseline - 413whp @ 17.5psi = 118whp gain
Mr. 5: 304whp baseline - 418whp @ 16.8psi = 114whp gain

Looks like the boost increase is more prevalent in this situation than the actual tune. I still can't believe cstavaru stated that you need to crank the boost on a JB3/Procede to get the same numbers as a GIAC. Complete nonsense.

I would be perfectly happy with the GIAC Stg.2 tune and the power it puts out. However, if I want the extra power for those days at the drag strip, I want it to be easily accessible, instead of harassing the tuner to provide a higher boost map for that purpose. I also appreciate the extras that come with a piggy tune (Procede) such as methanol failsafe integration, code clearing, downpipe fix, et al.

[imperium2000]

Deja vu.

The piggyback and dragstrip fanboys are criticizing Dinan for not making a tune that is as aggressive as they demand but instead producing a product that their customers seem to want ie a tune with more power but is also less aggressive on the boost and turbos....oops, I meant to say GIAC

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Hats off for the quickest 6MT record for sure...but not the fastest though...there's at least 3-4 of us (including myself) with higher traps..

i'm going to the strip tomorrow, this time instead of pump/meth and 19'' rims/tires I'll be running MS109 (hopefully they'll have it), 90/10 meth (last time I had 70/30 AFAIK) and MT ET DRs...hopefully taking down that record

check dragtimes.com...

Ah ok Cool!
Good luck man!

[Mr. 5]

There's another issue here...
Let's please remember that not all dynos read the same.
We are comparing a dyno from cali to NYC (I think?)

This is one of the reasons why I was looking forward to the dyno event that Sticky was putting on because this would have been done on the same day using the same dyno.
Then we would have been able to compare boost and hp etc.

[old account 1]

Originally Posted by themyst

what failsafes do GIAC offer for customers who run meth? The JB3 can accept a low flow output from a flow sensor and drop to a lower map, and the Procede can switch from pump map to meth map based on meth flow. I do not know of anything other than monitoring flow on something like a coolingmist CMGS that can prevent or reduce boost output if a meth injection system fails. What is the solution if someone runs out of meth or has a system failure? Don't boost? I'm not flaming or trying to start an argument, I just want to know how something like this would work in a flash tune application.

We have not released any direct methanol failsafes to date. However, we have not had any issues with the 9 cars that we had which run methanol. We have some in-house prototype equipment which could successfully act as a methanol failsafe and switch the car from race to pump mode. We will likely be testing that next.

[old account 1]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Judging from the past success of Dinan and BMW Performance, it would seem that reliability and moderate performance are a priority for many buyers. I see GIAC as fitting into a niche in between BMW Performance (and the vacuum left by Dinan) on the one hand, and the more 1/4 mile oriented Procede/JB group.

The range, in terms of comfort with risk and concern with 1/4 mile, is something like:
JB+ BMWPerformance Dinan1&2 GIAC I&II ProcedeV4 JB3

Meth users are at the far right. DPs and FMICs start in the middle.

What we have are lots of great options. To each their own. Personally I wish there was a GIAC dealer near to me so I could test it out. There isn't -- GIAC will primarily appeal to the dense markets on the coasts with good service. The other interesting potential component of the GIAC niche is for track rather than the drag strip. Not sure how that is going to work out, look forward to seeing results.

We have had incredible success on the track with stage 2 software to-date. Here is the latest from Berk Technology: Berk Technology Sets Another Track Record with Redline Time Attack/. Though HP Autowerks and Evolution Racewerks did not compete in the last Time Attack, they have had similar success with all three battling amongst each other for the top spot. Additionally, Alpina_B3_Lux has spent a bit of time on the Nurburgring, Mr.5 has been to Laguna Seca (& maybe others?), and Eurotrip has tracked at Willow Springs and Fontana.

[old account 1]

Originally Posted by imperium2000

Deja vu.

The piggyback and dragstrip fanboys are criticizing Dinan for not making a tune that is as aggressive as they demand but instead producing a product that their customers seem to want ie a tune with more power but is also less aggressive on the boost and turbos....oops, I meant to say GIAC

We never came into this market assuming that we would please everybody (we absolutely knew there would be trolls). That is the beauty of a market like this, there are options for every person's tastes.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

There's another issue here...
Let's please remember that not all dynos read the same.
We are comparing a dyno from cali to NYC (I think?)

This is one of the reasons why I was looking forward to the dyno event that Sticky was putting on because this would have been done on the same day using the same dyno.
Then we would have been able to compare boost and hp etc.

Dynojet 424Linx, 91 degrees ambient, 45% humidity, and I don't know baro pressure off the top of my head. Pretty close to sea level, as most of NYC is.

I don't know what kind of conditions you dynoed in, but my conditions were far from favorable. And regardless of any calibration variances, we are looking at the delta; the reason why the baseline is so important. Without one, we have absolutely no idea what kind of gains you are making from stock to tuned. I mean we are guessing off an old stock+bolt-on baseline which read 304whp on your end. Not much we can deduce, can we?

[Mr. 5]

It's amazing how the mind set has changed around here.
I remember when I posted the GIAC stage 1 dyno and people were complaining about how dangerous it was to boost 13 psi to redline (even though it was actually boosting 10ish to redline).

People were calling the GIAC tune "the most agressive tune out there."
Now, people are happy because they made so much power because their tune was boosting 19 psi to redline.
This tune is under powered. lol

It just proves that no matter what, most people will find the need to defend whatever they have and they will do it...just because.

Originally Posted by Prince ///M

If you look at the compressor flow maps you can notice that more than 11psi above 6500 rpm are not a good idea on stock turbos.

If you care about those little 200.000 rpm bastards, probably you need to lower boost levels above 6000rpm.

It is quite strange that GIAC don't use high boost values where it is possible to do it safely (15 psi @ 3500 rpm) and overtress the turbos near the redline.

BTW the AF ratios look way better then Procede and Jb3 ones

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

You need a lot more turbine RPM to hit a particular boost level at higher RPM because the engine is sucking in so much more air. We can debate whether 13psi @ 6500+rpm is safe or not, but anyone familiar with boost curves will agree its pretty aggressive. Much more so than JB3 map 3, more like map 7. BMS feels that level of boost at high RPM is only safe long term when combined with free flowing mods like DP, intake, and IC, to keep turbine speed down.

Mike

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

If GIAC is holding 13.5 psi to redline, then they are the most aggressive tune out there. I would strongly suggest anyone that thinks 13.5 psi to redline is "safe", then read this thread:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256804

The reason GIAC has more power to redline is that they are holding more boost until redline. If JB3 or Procede wants to hold 13.5 psi to redline then the dyno's will be identical. However, every single expert will tell you that you are spinning those turbos way out of the efficiency range running that much boost to redline. Maybe a compressor map expert can chime in, but to produce the CFMs necessary to hold 13.5 psi to redline would require the compressor's to spin over 200,000. GIAC is really pushing the envelope.

Originally Posted by Prince ///M

This is my guess for the boost curve posted in the Giac dyno charts with a stock IC.

It is not a 'drama' situation, but also not so easy on turbo bearings.

The V3 stage I is not so different (a little bit better to be honest), but at least with the Procede you can decide to lower UT to 50% in order to have a bulletproof tune .

Yes, GIAC A/F ratios are safer but they affect internals durability while turbos are the weak link.

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

No doubt it is running more rich A/F ratios, but I don't think that is pushing the envelope. This is not a standard FI car and leaner A/Fs are quite common on DI engines.

Second, I think you are being deceptive in saying the GIAC is not holding 13 psi to redline. At 6600 rpms, it is logged at 13-14 psi. Those dynos stop at 7100 rpm and I don't know a single person that would shift that high on these small turbos.

For the record, BMS is putting down 10-11 psi near the top, so what you guys are looking at is nothing more than GIAC putting out more boost on top and the corresponding more fuel.

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

I am not saying the compressor maps are the end all be all, but clearly pushing 13 psi at 6600 rpms on these turbos places them WAY out of their efficiency range and almost off the chart. If I am reading this correctly, then they are spinning near 200,000 rpms.

This is not a supra community where many have experience with turbos. These guys look to many of the more educated on here for direction. All I am saying is the maps appear to show that this tune is spinning the turbos completely off the efficiency islands. Second, if someone is marketing this tune on the "increase in hp at higher rpms", then we know why. GIAC clearly believes running more boost at higher rpms is safe. Is that not accurate?

Really, I am not trying to start an argument. These are simply the facts.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

It's amazing how the mind set has changed around here.
I remember when I posted the GIAC stage 1 dyno and people were complaining about how dangerous it was to boost 13 psi to redline (even though it was actually boosting 10ish to redline).

People were calling the GIAC tune "the most agressive tune out there."
Now, people are happy because they made so much power because their tune was boosting 19 psi to redline.
This tune is under powered. lol

It just proves that no matter what, most people will find the need to defend whatever they have and they will do it...just because.

The only point I was trying to make was that I am gaining similar power with less mods with 0.7psi more boost, without a same-day baseline for your dyno graph. I'm not defending anything; I bet the JB3 could come up with similar numbers on a properly running car.

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by themyst

Dynojet 424Linx, 91 degrees ambient, 45% humidity, and I don't know baro pressure off the top of my head. Pretty close to sea level, as most of NYC is.

I don't know what kind of conditions you dynoed in, but my conditions were far from favorable. And regardless of any calibration variances, we are looking at the delta; the reason why the baseline is so important. Without one, we have absolutely no idea what kind of gains you are making from stock to tuned. I mean we are guessing off an old stock+bolt-on baseline which read 304whp on your end. Not much we can deduce, can we?

I understand but you can take your tune out whereas I can't.
The closest thing I have is the the "stock mode" from the switcher.

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by themyst

The only point I was trying to make was that I am gaining similar power with less mods with 0.7psi more boost, without a same-day baseline for your dyno graph. I'm not defending anything; I bet the JB3 could come up with similar numbers on a properly running car.

That wasn't pointed specificaly at you.
It was just an observation.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

I understand but you can take your tune out whereas I can't.
The closest thing I have is the the "stock mode" from the switcher.

FWIW, I didn't take the tune out for my baseline. I set the tune to Map 0.