[themyst]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Nice try nub, log your car and see happens when the throttle is closed....It have a MT car not an automatic. A mt car hits low loads which request high timing when you get off the throttle. You do reliazed you circled boost being blow off right?

Otherwise according to your IDIOTIC logic, my car knocked as no throttle was applied, and the rpm were FALLING DOWN. REALLY BRO?!

Stupidity gets me angry.

LMAO uber fail! circling timing spikes as knock It's amusing watching people try to argue a point they have no idea of.

[onesuperboi]

I surprised that the JB knocks THAT much.

And, maybe the JB logging abilities are not good enough to catch knock...?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Litos

because it's FAST AAARRRRGHGHGHGH

i honestly don't know, but i hope this thread sheds some light and/or will be a learning tool for me.

my ETS IC should be installed by Sunday, but i'm still going to run Map 1 until Map 5 is finalized.

So? Any of the tunes that remap or offset ignition in one form or another will run more consistently, make as much power, and keep your engine happier. It sounds more like you don't want to pay for another tune.

I paid for a JB3, paid for a Procede, and if ATR does what I hope it can, I will pay for a Cobb AP as well; dump this meth kit for good and both piggybacks right with it. Don't let your wallet dictate what is best for your car.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by themyst

So? Any of the tunes that remap or offset ignition in one form or another will run more consistently, make as much power, and keep your engine happier. It sounds more like you don't want to pay for another tune.

I paid for a JB3, paid for a Procede, and if ATR does what I hope it can, I will pay for a Cobb AP as well; dump this meth kit for good and both piggybacks right with it. Don't let your wallet dictate what is best for your car.

Sounds like you are LOADED!! buy us all one of these super units please!!

[themyst]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Sounds like you are LOADED!! buy us all one of these super units please!!

We do have a wonderful Private Classifieds section on these boards that make the cost of trading one tune for another, very cost-effective. Perhaps you should think before you speak.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by onesuperboi

I surprised that the JB knocks THAT much.

And, maybe the JB logging abilities are not good enough to catch knock...?

the JB4's CANbus polling rate should be equal to the Procede. Other parameters that are not read off the CAN are polled at 32 measurements(?) per second on the Procede... not sure about the JB4.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by themyst

We do have a wonderful Private Classifieds section on these boards that make the cost of trading one tune for another, very cost-effective. Perhaps you should think before you speak.

For the 07 335I cobb accessories?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Guess I didnt miss much.... Same repeated questions and points proven.

Cliff notes, add race gas, let me see some dips. (PS. you wont find any on a stock tune).

By no accident it would clean up most ignition on a lot of tunes.

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Timing is mapped off load so during load transitions such as shifts you'll see it ramp up and back down quickly especially if you get shift boost spikes. In the case of this log you can see boost jumped over target causing the distinctive hemisphere curve inversely proportional to the boost being over target. It's hard to look at dips and determine whether or not they are actually knock related or any number of other things which is exactly why looking at knock sensor feedback is the next step to optimizing autotuning. Right now the JB4 autotuning has a bug where it picks up DTC dips as false knock as well for example.

Mikr

The load difference in boost overshot is maybe 40 points and will NOT correlate to a sharp drop in timing... it's gradual, over several 100 rpms.

[mikracer]

Originally Posted by Litos

what's an MSRT8?

my car has always driven smooth with no knock at all - you might have been driving it in bad conditions or running bad fuel like all these other people are saying lol.

Magnum SRT8. I drove it on 91 like everyone else in the SRT8 forum that got pinging. Its pretty much known that they ping pretty bad in those forums. You can run a dashhawk or other obd plugin gauge and it will show quite a bit of knock retard in stock form and also on the 91 tune from Diablo. Just saying. For it being the "top of the line" model, I wasnt impressed. Got rid of it after only 4 months.

[ZTUNER]

In the interest of science, i will conduct a test. When my tank is close to empty i will log a few pulls to simulate a 1/4 mile. Add a few gallons of race gas and repeat. I'll then post up the logs for all to see in a seperate thread. give me a week or so.

Harry

[STONEY_M5]

The BMW Turbo Control System and Dinan Tuning

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recent postings on forums have suggested that Dinan is backing off on power aggressively with our 3.0L twin turbo software when the engine heat soaks. This is completely false.

First off, temperature and safety correction logic in the software are actually written by BMW, not Dinan, and are in both the Dinan and stock software. Dinan does not adjust the stock corrections or any other safety logic because we deem such actions unnecessary and potentially unsafe for the engine.

The software's strategies are as follows:

I) Ambient Air Temperature. There is a standard correction for air inlet temperature for both fuel mixture and ignition timing. These are based on air density and are standard for all engine calibrations regardless of manufacturer or fuel injection brand. These corrections work the same on both naturally aspirated and forced induction engines.
Basically, colder air is denser, which means there are more oxygen molecules going into the engine. Because of this, more fuel must be injected to maintain the proper air fuel ratio. The opposite occurs when the air is hot, in which case less fuel is injected into the engine.
A colder charge is less prone to detonation, so the ignition timing is advanced with cold air and retarded with hot air to protect the engine.

II) Overheat Protection. There is also heat exchanger efficiency software that protects the engine if it gets hot. Laws of thermodynamics tell us that to exchange heat there must be a differential in temperature, and the greater the differential the more heat is exchanged. These corrections work the same on both naturally aspirated and forced induction engines.
On a cold day when the radiator is working very well and is much colder than the block temperature, the ECU will lean out the mixture and advance the timing.
On a hot day when the radiator gets closer to the engine block temperature and the block temperature rises because of radiator inefficiency, the software anticipates the engine overheating and retards the ignition timing so the engine loses power and thereby produces less heat. In addition, the fuel mixture is richened to absorb combustion chamber heat (fuel cooling). This fuel cooling also quenches the combustion chamber and reduces the tendency to detonate or ping.

III) Detonation. When the engine is detonating (pinging) due to poor fuel quality or excess cylinder pressure, the knock control system will retard the ignition timing so the engine loses power, reducing the tendency to detonate. In addition, the fuel mixture is richened to absorb combustion chamber heat (fuel cooling) and reduce the hot metal’s tendency to cause detonation.

IV) Catalyst Protection. When the engine’s duty cycle is high (high rpm, and especially at wide open throttle in high gear), there is less time for the catalyst to cool between cylinder firings. This puts more load or heat on the catalyst, so the fuel mixture is richened to quench the catalyst in order to keep it below the temperature where it will get damaged.

Some additional points:

I) The Dyno Run Versus the Road. When you put your car on a chassis dyno it is impossible to get the same level of air flow that the car will experience on the road. It would require a fan the size of a wind tunnel. As cars get smarter, accurate dynamometer testing gets harder. While we have the largest fan I have ever seen on a chassis dyno, it still will produce significantly less air flow than driving the car down the road. This will give you the triple whammy.
Both the intercooler and the radiator will be less efficient, and as a result the engine will detonate more. So when repeated runs are made, the engine goes into save-its- life mode, aggressively reducing power by retarding the ignition timing and richening the fuel mixture as well as possibly lowering the boost depending on how extreme the condition is.
If the piggy back boxes are not losing as much power as a stock or Dinan car on the dyno, you should be afraid because this means that your engine is in jeopardy as a result of these safety controls being compromised. Maybe not on purpose, but none the less compromised.
The same conditions are seldom seen on the road, so the correction while driving will not be as aggressive as you will see on the dyno. You can verify that this is true by the glowing reports of the cars performance on the road and the track:



II) Getting the Most Power. As you can tell, these corrections are a good thing. Having said that, more power can be safely achieved by correcting the conditions that the ECU is correcting for.
A better intercooler will reduce inlet temperature, advance the timing, and lean the mixture
A better oil cooler will reduce engine temperature, advance the timing, and lean the mixture
Higher octane fuel will reduce detonation, advance the timing, and lean the mixture.
This is why we require an intercooler and oil cooler for our Stage 3 software, to protect your investment and extract the most power. We also recommend using unleaded racing fuel whenever you do a track day.

I hope this helps you to understand what is going on inside the incredible engine control system that BMW has put on your engine.

Steve Dinan, Steve Breen



very interesting to say the least....

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Timing is mapped off load so during load transitions such as shifts you'll see it ramp up and back down quickly especially if you get shift boost spikes. In the case of this log you can see boost jumped over target causing the distinctive hemisphere curve inversely proportional to the boost being over target. It's hard to look at dips and determine whether or not they are actually knock related or any number of other things which is exactly why looking at knock sensor feedback is the next step to optimizing autotuning. Right now the JB4 autotuning has a bug where it picks up DTC dips as false knock as well for example.

Mikr

You are so full of wrong information right now, it will almost hurts to show you the way when I get home. You do realize that each and every one of my logs accounts for ACTUAL load the dme sees right?

You also realize that with your tuning product, the ecu has NO idea what actual load is being that feed it a dummy signal. Can you post 87 octane load vs timing maps? OH PLEASE DO, we both know you wont, cause they dont exsist.

[Morpheus]

[mithiral67]

Originally Posted by M335i Oreo Package

II) Overheat Protection. There is also heat exchanger efficiency software that protects the engine if it gets hot. Laws of thermodynamics tell us that to exchange heat there must be a differential in temperature, and the greater the differential the more heat is exchanged. These corrections work the same on both naturally aspirated and forced induction engines.
On a cold day when the radiator is working very well and is much colder than the block temperature, the ECU will lean out the mixture and advance the timing.
On a hot day when the radiator gets closer to the engine block temperature and the block temperature rises because of radiator inefficiency, the software anticipates the engine overheating and retards the ignition timing so the engine loses power and thereby produces less heat. In addition, the fuel mixture is richened to absorb combustion chamber heat (fuel cooling). This fuel cooling also quenches the combustion chamber and reduces the tendency to detonate or ping.

OMG, what do we do now.

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

I posted this log of autotuning in action on 91 octane awhile back but didn't get any comments either.

Mike

Seriously...you are going to say that the DME is learning and autotuning the timing...and then you post this of "autotune" from JB working???


This is seriously whacked....

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by ZTUNER

In the interest of science, i will conduct a test. When my tank is close to empty i will log a few pulls to simulate a 1/4 mile. Add a few gallons of race gas and repeat. I'll then post up the logs for all to see in a seperate thread. give me a week or so.

Harry

You're going to test whether increasing octane will reduce timing dips in general? That's been tested hundreds of times. Dips are caused by the DME's reaction to very early knock frequencies. If octane is high enough then the DME will not hear these frequencies and continually advance timing until it hits is maximum advance set point. That's how it works. Only in the real world you leave plenty of range above your knock threshold to allow for upward adaption. Or are you saying you're going to test the Cobb tuning on pump gas and then do pulls on race gas to see whether it is also riding the knock detection system?

Mike

[jzmundy]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

The most intelligent, coherent analysis in this entire pissing show.

[ZTUNER]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

You're going to test whether increasing octane will reduce timing dips in general? That's been tested hundreds of times. Dips are caused by the DME's reaction to very early knock frequencies. If octane is high enough then the DME will not hear these frequencies and continually advance timing until it hits is maximum advance set point. That's how it works. Only in the real world you leave plenty of range above your knock threshold to allow for upward adaption. Or are you saying you're going to test the Cobb tuning on pump gas and then do pulls on race gas to see whether it is also riding the knock detection system?

Mike

Obviously Cobb since thats what i have. Yes i am interested in seeing what happens to 4th gear timing . With the cobb tune if you pull 1st thru 4th the time in 4th is much lower than 2nd and 3rd. If its ait related the timing drop should still exist in higher gears. If its knock related it should have the same timing in 4th that it does in 3rd.

Just fyi i have no interest in proving anything good or bad about any tune so...
Harry

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by ZTUNER

Obviously Cobb since thats what i have. Yes i am interested in seeing what happens to 4th gear timing . With the cobb tune if you pull 1st thru 4th the time in 4th is much lower than 2nd and 3rd. If its ait related the timing drop should still exist in higher gears. If its knock related it should have the same timing in 4th that it does in 3rd.

Just fyi i have no interest in proving anything good or bad about any tune so...
Harry

I believe boom already did this and 4 th gear timing went up despite 170 iats

[papiti]

Things I've learned from this thread:

1. That every engine has Knock

2. That Clap likes bashing JB3/4 because of Knock

3. That there is no way of telling what degree of damage a Knock can do from Claps Maps

4. That Clap proved there's knock in all engines with tunes.

5. That there is NO proof that he BLOWN engines were caused by a JB3/4 tune, or because of a Knock

6. That the only way that a Knock will not go under 10 degrees is using Race Gas Fuel.

7. That Clap gets overly exited and looses his calm when somebody doesn't agree with him.

8. That, even with autotunig or without it, THERE IS STILL KNOCK, LMFAO!!

SO WHATS THE POINT CLAP??!!??

[ZTUNER]

Originally Posted by Clap135

I believe boom already did this and 4 th gear timing went up despite 170 iats

Hmmn, then knock is the only obvious answer.

Harry