[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

A Corolla is a compact class car. The Model 3 is midsized and just 3 cubic feet smaller than a Camry in passenger volume. A Honda Accord is now classed as Large at 106 cubic feet vs. the Camry's 100.

Per Edmunds, 2024 Weights (in pounds):
Model 3 - 3,891 (RWD small battery) 40.1 pounds/cu-ft
Camry - 3,340 (gas - LE) 33.4 pounds/cu-ft
Corolla - 2,955 (gas - LE) 33.2 pounds/cu-ft
Accord - 3,239 (gas - LX) 30.6 pounds/cu-ft

The Accord wins the weight / passenger volume spec by quite a bit; it beats the Model 3 by nearly 10 pounds/cu-ft.

Compare 2025 Models of the RWD Model 3 and the Camry LE the price difference, even with the Model 3 tax credit is just over $8,000. That translates into roughly just north of 80,000 miles before the Model 3 breaks even with the Camry based on the number of miles a Carmy can go on $8K worth of gasoline including ICE maintenance on the Camry (it's not much). To me buying a Model 3 still doesn't add up.

Because you're only looking at it financially... which is honestly weird on a BMW forum. Honestly if you don't just own used Toyota products then you are probably taking other things into account other than which is the cheapest option.

Have you been in an LE Camry? It's one of the lowest trims and has cloth seats, hard plastic everywhere, no navigation, shitty sound system, fwd, 225hp, 3/36 warranty.

So as someone who considers a lot more than simply the costs savings I would (and have) 100% pay the extra $8k for a Model 3.

But as I've said before, sounds like EVs are not for you.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

A Corolla is a compact class car. The Model 3 is midsized and just 3 cubic feet smaller than a Camry in passenger volume. A Honda Accord is now classed as Large at 106 cubic feet vs. the Camry's 100.

Per Edmunds, 2024 Weights (in pounds):
Model 3 - 3,891 (RWD small battery) 40.1 pounds/cu-ft
Camry - 3,340 (gas - LE) 33.4 pounds/cu-ft
Corolla - 2,955 (gas - LE) 33.2 pounds/cu-ft
Accord - 3,239 (gas - LX) 30.6 pounds/cu-ft

The Accord wins the weight / passenger volume spec by quite a bit; it beats the Model 3 by nearly 10 pounds/cu-ft.

Compare 2025 Models of the RWD Model 3 and the Camry LE the price difference, even with the Model 3 tax credit is just over $8,000. That translates into roughly just north of 80,000 miles before the Model 3 breaks even with the Camry based on the number of miles a Carmy can go on $8K worth of gasoline including ICE maintenance on the Camry (it's not much). To me buying a Model 3 still doesn't add up.

Model 3 is 3 inches longer and wider than Corolla. It may have more interior volume, because it barely has an interior. It's a cheap material, poorly built, empty interior, so I'm not surprised it has more interior space... There's nothing in it!

That said, I agree, I would not want to drive a Camry LE. But some people don't care about their car at all and see it like a toaster oven, so they buy cars like that.

[afadeev]

Finally, a sensible ICE car actually worth considering?

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I think a lot of the market bases buying decisions around cost savings. The Camry is the best-selling ICEV sedan in the US. Toyota routinely sells between 280,000 to 300,000 units a year. The Model 3 is Tesla's best-selling EV sedan, so again, from a market perspective, the two vehicles are comparable. Both cars are classified as mid-size and are within 3 cubic-feet of each other in passenger volume. An economic evaluation of both cars is part of that comparison.

I'd buy an EV if (a) it didn't have a big TV stuck on the dash, (b) made economic sense, and (c) was easy to operate on extended drives beyond its battery range. Outside of Tesla, EV are just too difficult to deal with regarding refueling beyond their battery range. ICEV can recharge in 5 minutes, and cars like the Camry have a 400+ mile tank range. ICEV can be recharged practically anywhere in the US. Since 2013, I've been looking at EV as a replacement for my 2006 E90 that now has 426,000 miles on it. I haven't yet found an EV that is better than my well-used E90. I'm not going to sit around for 40 minutes in the winter to recover 200 miles of range, that is just stupid, especially when EV cost just as much to fuel on the road as an ICEV.

And this is why I don't buy vehicles based on sales numbers and cubic feet data and other nonsensical metrics. Having actually driven many Model 3s and several lower trim Toyotas (maybe not an LE Camry specifically) I know for a fact, regardless of any online cubic feet measurements or sales numbers or what random people on the internet say, they are completely different vehicles. Not even close in actual real world driving and ownership experience. It's like arguing that vanilla is better than chocolate because vanilla is being sold for less and they are both basically milk and sugar.

As for the second part of your post, I already said many many times it's pretty clear an EV isn't for you. Not sure why you feel the need to justify your choice of not getting an EV in half your posts. Unlike some people around here... I don't care what you drive. Drive a truck or a corolla or an EV or a 426k mile E90. Doesn't matter to me.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

A model 3 is also Corolla sized. So it shouldn't weigh as much as a 5. Also, Teslas are by far the lightest EVs, and don't represent the whole market at all.

sorry, wrong again...Model 3 and 3 series are almost identical in size and weight.... Why bring up a Corolla when it is not "Corolla sized"???

the Model 3 dimensions

186″ L x 73″ W x 57″ H

curb weight 3862- 4054 lbs depending on model

3 series is almsot identical

186″ L x 72″ W x 57″ H

curb weight 3,536–4,180 lbs depending on model


point is, it is silly to try and bring up weight issues and road degradation as some sort of EV issue when there are 70,000 lbs simitrucks using the same roads

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Then why do you keep bringing it up?

And to some people cars are like refrigerators, as long as the car gets them to point B, that's all they care about. For me, a refrigerator just needs to keep my food from spoiling and my beer cold.

What did I bring up? Your car choice? I don't think so. You are trying to compare a base camry to a model 3 and I'm saying they are not comparable. I never said you should buy a model 3 or an EV or a camry or anything. I have made 0 comments about your choice of vehicle. You bring that up on your own. I say a camry and a model 3 are totally different and you go on to explain for the 100x why EVs don't work for you and why you don't want one. Ooook. Doesn't change that a camry and a model 3 are not equivalent.

The people who see cars like an appliance and just want to get from point a to point b as cheaply as possible should just buy a used Toyota or Honda and that's it. If they are buying anything other than that then they do care about other things.

[M5Rick]

I'm reading that there is little interest in the M3 EV, you can see the vids yourselves as I'm not putting them on anymore.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

sorry, wrong again...Model 3 and 3 series are almost identical in size and weight.... Why bring up a Corolla when it is not "Corolla sized"???

the Model 3 dimensions

186″ L x 73″ W x 57″ H

curb weight 3862- 4054 lbs depending on model

3 series is almsot identical

186″ L x 72″ W x 57″ H

curb weight 3,536–4,180 lbs depending on model


point is, it is silly to try and bring up weight issues and road degradation as some sort of EV issue when there are 70,000 lbs simitrucks using the same roads

Who was even talking about the 3 series? Reality is the model 3 is 3" away in size from a Corolla. That's fine, whatever.

You're close to getting it though. This whole line of discussion came from someone saying how terrible trucks and SUVs were because they were heavy and so they were hard on roads and unsafe and whatever. The point was you can't be anti truck because of weight and not be anti EV too, because the EV market as a whole is also very heavy.

And yeah, commercial vehicles are in another league of weight. Yet people act like they should be able to stop in distances that would make a race car envious, but that's a whole other discussion of how unprepared for driving most people are.

[RM7]

I think the point is that EV cars are not automatically 2x the weight of ICE, in fact, in some cases they are lighter, like Model S vs. Mercedes S or E63, etc. A battery adds weight, but the electric motors are much lighter and they are not filled with gas and fluids either, the weight is down low as well. I mean sure, an EV6 GT is 4800lbs, but an RS6 Avant is 5000. Even if they are heavier in some cases, we aren't talking obnoxious weights. Sure, you can pull up some outliers and a 2004 H1 Hummer is 8100lbs BTW, but again, this is a total nothingburger at this point. Yes, taxes will need to be restructured somewhat, possibly through registration, but not burning fossil fuels will get some credits too. Should you pay more because you are requiring semi trucks to be trucking fuel everywhere across the country and causing more road damage? That should also be on the table. If you're going to pull the weight card, you need to consider this as well.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by RM7

I think the point is that EV cars are not automatically 2x the weight of ICE, in fact, in some cases they are lighter, like Model S vs. Mercedes S or E63, etc. A battery adds weight, but the electric motors are much lighter and they are not filled with gas and fluids either, the weight is down low as well. I mean sure, an EV6 GT is 4800lbs, but an RS6 Avant is 5000. Even if they are heavier in some cases, we aren't talking obnoxious weights. Sure, you can pull up some outliers and a 2004 H1 Hummer is 8100lbs BTW, but again, this is a total nothingburger at this point. Yes, taxes will need to be restructured somewhat, possibly through registration, but not burning fossil fuels will get some credits too. Should you pay more because you are requiring semi trucks to be trucking fuel everywhere across the country and causing more road damage? That should also be on the table. If you're going to pull the weight card, you need to consider this as well.

By the same token, you're trucking fuel to a power plant for EVs. You're trucking in loads of stuff to build new plants and upgrade distribution and all that.

I agree, it's a nothingburger on all sides. Governments will pretty quickly adapt and tax people with EVs, the only thing that is TBD is if it'll be flat rate or based on mileage, and I suspect that will be different by state. States with inspections will probably go by mile, and those without flat fee.

If we really cared about the environment we would be pushing right to repair laws and offering a tax credit for car repairs and things like that to keep cars on the road longer. But it's never been about the environment, it's always been about money, and it probably always will, with all things.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

By the same token, you're trucking fuel to a power plant for EVs. You're trucking in loads of stuff to build new plants and upgrade distribution and all that.

I agree, it's a nothingburger on all sides. Governments will pretty quickly adapt and tax people with EVs, the only thing that is TBD is if it'll be flat rate or based on mileage, and I suspect that will be different by state. States with inspections will probably go by mile, and those without flat fee.

If we really cared about the environment we would be pushing right to repair laws and offering a tax credit for car repairs and things like that to keep cars on the road longer. But it's never been about the environment, it's always been about money, and it probably always will, with all things.

TRUTH.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

By the same token, you're trucking fuel to a power plant for EVs. You're trucking in loads of stuff to build new plants and upgrade distribution and all that.

Not constantly, which is the issue with ICE fuel. Upgrading grids is not necessarily tied to EVs either, increased consumption from AI, bitminers, industry, increased population, etc. These all share some responsibility, but the EVs are not constantly trucking fuel to points like that. In fact, if we are talking coal, it's most often delivered by rail, far more efficient than roads. But alas, you are the one that brought or kept prolonging the idea that EVs are far heavier than ICE and causing all this road damage. That was the point being discussed.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

TRUTH.

No, because people are always going to buy new stuff. Sure, that plays part of it, but the idea that repairing a 15 year old vehicle (which ends up often turning into never ending issues and never-quite-right repairs) being more efficient is again a non-starter. People are going to buy new stuff.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by RM7

No, because people are always going to buy new stuff. Sure, that plays part of it, but the idea that repairing a 15 year old vehicle (which ends up often turning into never ending issues and never-quite-right repairs) being more efficient is again a non-starter. People are going to buy new stuff.

No.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

If we really cared about the environment we would be pushing right to repair laws and offering a tax credit for car repairs and things like that to keep cars on the road longer. But it's never been about the environment, it's always been about money, and it probably always will, with all things.

It's not this or that, it can and has to be, both.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by RM7

Not constantly, which is the issue with ICE fuel. Upgrading grids is not necessarily tied to EVs either, increased consumption from AI, bitminers, industry, increased population, etc. These all share some responsibility, but the EVs are not constantly trucking fuel to points like that. In fact, if we are talking coal, it's most often delivered by rail, far more efficient than roads. But alas, you are the one that brought or kept prolonging the idea that EVs are far heavier than ICE and causing all this road damage. That was the point being discussed.

I mean, I don't think we can claim eco friendly high ground if you're calling for coal power plants, lol.

That said, EVs ARE heavier, with maybe the notable except of Tesla? I still find it disingenuous to say they're "as heavy as some.of the heaviest luxury cars that are larger than them", when they're cheap trash inside, but I'll give you that some Teslas may be lighter than some others. Cybertruck is 6800 pounds so not it, as that's way heavier than a f150 or other 1500, but that's besides the point. The whole point was that if we're gonna bitch about trucks being heavy and causing wear, than heavy ass EVs with their instant torque delivery have to be considered too.

EVe and repairing vehicles to keep them on the road long term are incompatible. Battery degradation is just a fact. So the car with 300 miles of range in a perfect world on day 1, how much is it gonna have at 20 years old? 150? 200? Maybe that's enough for people and they'll keep driving them, but one has to think that there's not going to be a large overlap of people wanting a cheap car who also can charge at home routinely and never need to go over a limited range. And the reality of these cars is, they're barriers that include a car, not the other way around. Just like any battery powered tool, when your battery pack craps out, you're better off just buying a new tool and getting a battery with it instead of buying just a replacement battery (though to be fair, Milwaukee runs some crazy deals on some of the M18 batteries from time to time, but rack rate for those batteries is BRUTAL).

Anyways, there's absolutely applications for EVs. I think all buses should be EVs, and every bigger bus stop should have a little charger that juices it up for 1-2 minutes. That's a really practical application for them. School buses also make a lot of sense to be EVs IMO. But there's a lot of applications where EVs make no sense at all, and reality is, despite what some regulators want, we will most likely always need a mixture of combustion and non combustion vehicles. That's why things like biodiesel and synthetic gasoline and all that kinda stuff is critical too, it can't be all EVs, no matter how much corrupt ass investment into EVs the regulators have made.

[M5Rick]

In Poland, Germany and other E European countries trolley buses run on rails without any problems with overhead cables powering but putting a tyred lithium battery EV bus on the road is fraught with problems from the word go, even more so with colder weather.

[TargaM2]

Reality starting to hit the new car market.

[Donatello.]

Not surprising.

[BroDoze]

I told you so

[dgoldenz]

Who could have possibly foreseen this?

[gblansten]

As expected. You can't force the market.