[jhershorin]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Ah ok. How did you determine that you were riding the knock sensor/knocking with the jb3? Did you have some sort of knock monitoring device?

Btw, I agree with your findings. I'm just curious as to how you did your testing.

Shiv

Two ways. First is an aftermarket knock sensor with an LED in the vent except it was taken out because it was always on haha. The second is a bolt that is drilled out leading to a tube into stethescopes so you can hear the knock.

I guess I just don't understand why people are okay running the JB3. I know it makes power but doesnt it bother you that making that power is through extremely advanced timing till the motor knocks, having the stock ECU pull timing till it knocks again, and so forth. I guess I just believe in proper tuning. But then again I own the car and am not leasing so maybe I just care more - or actually understand tuning haha.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

RevII is although the same as the BT tool for clearing and reading codes

Yep. But with the advantage of actually having 2 way communication between the diagnostic tool and the tune. The CAN/diagnostic system sends data (that it would not otherwise have) to be used by the tune. And visa versa.

Having a tune and a diagnostic tool with no communication (ie, jb3 and BT tool) is like having Mustang with a supercharger sitting in the truck. Yes, it's there. but it's not doing anything useful.

Shiv

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by jhershorin

Two ways. First is an aftermarket knock sensor with an LED in the vent except it was taken out because it was always on haha.

ah ok. Did you use a knock link?

The second is a bolt that is drilled out leading to a tube into stethescopes so you can hear the knock.

That's the best way to do it. Nothing better that using your ears/head when detecting knock. Especially when we don't have access to ion detecting systems in the spark plugs like with the M5.

I guess I just don't understand why people are okay running the JB3. I know it makes power but doesnt it bother you that making that power is through extremely advanced timing till the motor knocks, having the stock ECU pull timing till it knocks again, and so forth. I guess I just believe in proper tuning. But then again I own the car and am not leasing so maybe I just care more - or actually understand tuning haha.

Reading this thread illustrates why people are okay with running it. Most just have no clue about how an engine works and how to tune it. They would rather just listen to forum arguments, pick a side, and stick with it blindly defending it regardless of the data is brought to light. It's a bizarre phenomena that doesn't make sense to me, you or anyone else who has a good understanding on the matter at hand. Few will go to the effort of hooking up det cans or making a home brew knock microphone to prove or disprove that flawed tuning approach. It's much easier to listen to those who say everything is okay. Fortunately, it seems more people are trying to understand more and figuring things out themselves.

Shiv

PS. On his forum, Terry is suggesting that YOU are ME operating under a fake ID. And our very own Terrance (a participant in this thread) agrees and finds it amusing how you "came out of no where." This is an example of how silly things have become on this forum when it comes to partisanship/tuner loyalty.

[ontopofm]

Originally Posted by twinturbopg

so this part doesnt go on forever.....

If thats the case then his math is off still...its $945 procede v3 rev2 http://www.vishnutuning.com/V3Race-2.htm

945-499 = $446

but comparing plug n play (pnp) to plug n play which makes sense!

JB3PnP & BT combo = $699
http://www.burgertuning.com/jb3pnp.html

PROcede Rev. II CANbus PnP = $945
http://www.vishnutuning.com/V3Race-2.htm

the magic difference issssssssssss $246 - O2 SIM =

fixed

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by ontopofm

fixed

Ah good catch on the o2 sim. Don't forget about the speed delimiter

Shiv

[thatsosm]

forgot to mention, Procede Has Top speed delimiter

[etmathews]

Terry should be allowed back on this forum. I think if there is going to be fair discussion we should be able to hear from both Shiv and Terry.

[CaptainDang]

Originally Posted by twinturbopg

so this part doesnt go on forever.....

If thats the case then his math is off still...its $945 procede v3 rev2 http://www.vishnutuning.com/V3Race-2.htm

945-499 = $446

but comparing plug n play (pnp) to plug n play which makes sense!

JB3PnP & BT combo = $699
http://www.burgertuning.com/jb3pnp.html

PROcede Rev. II CANbus PnP = $945
http://www.vishnutuning.com/V3Race-2.htm

the magic difference issssssssssss $246

But the BT cable is really one of those must have items if you have a 335i no? I mean there are a lot more to the BT cable than just clearing tuner codes, it can help troubleshoot your car if something goes wrong. Just like a GT1 from BMW.

So basically Proceed owners would be smart to invest in a BT cable also, which adds another $287 to the price tag, but if you go with a JB3 you can get the BT cable for only $130ish. Just adding fuel to the fire, I'm really neutral on this whole thing. My STI only had Vishnu stuff on it.

[usc335]

Originally Posted by jhershorin

Two ways. First is an aftermarket knock sensor with an LED in the vent except it was taken out because it was always on haha. The second is a bolt that is drilled out leading to a tube into stethescopes so you can hear the knock.

I guess I just don't understand why people are okay running the JB3. I know it makes power but doesnt it bother you that making that power is through extremely advanced timing till the motor knocks, having the stock ECU pull timing till it knocks again, and so forth. I guess I just believe in proper tuning. But then again I own the car and am not leasing so maybe I just care more - or actually understand tuning haha.

Don't people wonder why EVERY reputable piggyback manufacturer controls timing? If anyone is skeptical, research this and report back. Even if you believe the N54 is somehow different than every other internal combustion engine, wouldn't you rather have a tune that controls timing vs. one that can't and relies entirely on the factory knock control system that wasn't designed for the extra boost, heat, and power? Very odd...

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

RevII is although the same as the BT tool for clearing and reading codes

They are really nothing alike in terms of functionality... Anyone who has used the BT for code management can attest to how awesome it is. And don't forget it can read codes and data from ALL modules, not just the DME. So you can delete stability control codes, etc, before service. It also functions with the tune on or off the car, and plugs in under the wheel for very easy access.

Mike

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by twinturbopg

so this part doesnt go on forever.....

If thats the case then his math is off still...its $945 procede v3 rev2 http://www.vishnutuning.com/V3Race-2.htm

945-499 = $446

but comparing plug n play (pnp) to plug n play which makes sense!

JB3PnP & BT combo = $699
http://www.burgertuning.com/jb3pnp.html

PROcede Rev. II CANbus PnP = $945
http://www.vishnutuning.com/V3Race-2.htm

the magic difference issssssssssss $246

Don't forget that if you want to actually know what the code and its freeze frame data, or want to remove a code from a non ECU module, which is very important if you dyno or go to the track, then you're in for another $287 on the V3 package. So its more like $1232 vs. $699. If you want to get a dual cone intake, it more like $1382 vs. $799, and I think I have cheaper and faster shipping, especially international.

Mike

[e.n335]

Price is not the issue in case one tune rides the factory knocking system. I'd love Mike to comment on this.

[ims]

i like the PROcede, personal preference im sure the JB3 is amazing... but I love the car with the PROcede V3 - i dont see a need to change... and its always being updated... plus shiv is like right here, hey shiv... always following the threads and asking for feedback and answering questions thats what makes me feel this tune is truly user adjustable (theoretically and practically) and obviously common issues or any problem you have can/should/would be figured out on e90post.com

IMO-IMO-IMO

[thatsosm]

You get what you pay for !

[kenneth]

I believe most procede owners don't have a BT cable, and that's ok because they don't need one! Nobody can tell them that they need one.....

[X.X.I.V]

with the Lean Run mode on the V3
wouldn't that be better for your wallet later?

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by mario0573

with the Lean Run mode on the V3
wouldn't that be better for your wallet later?

JB is definitely a gas guzzler compared to the procede.......

[ims]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Don't forget that if you want to actually know what the code and its freeze frame data, or want to remove a code from a non ECU module, which is very important if you dyno or go to the track, then you're in for another $287 on the V3 package. So its more like $1232 vs. $699. If you want to get a dual cone intake, it more like $1382 vs. $799, and I think I have cheaper and faster shipping, especially international.

Mike

$$$ difference is is a valid point but its not all that much IMO, especially between two amazing tunes difference is nothing when it comes to dealing with these tunes and cars... people spend more than that amount on car washes and detailing - speaking of which I wanna grab that carnauba wax stuff.. looks impressive.-->

none the less JB3 is a very powerful tune

[mmmotornutz]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I think I've met you before at the drag strip when you were running a jb3, race gas and 106-108mph traps. You seemed like a reasonable guy. Let's move on.

Shiv

The only true way not to rely on the factory safety system when running twice as much boost is to flash the ECU and having full control over it. For someone who have been doing this for as long as you have, I am surprised you haven't offered a flash yet. CAS offset is close but no cigar but the best a piggyback can do. In the end both piggybacks ride the knock sensor. Yes, to a certain extent, one more than the other. Both still rely on the factory safety system to keep things "cool" no pun intended. Detonation or knock is seen by the DME w/ or w/o a tune. I have confidence in how BMW software engineers wrote their algorithms to handle detonation - more confidence over piggyback induced timing offsets that can help some sleep better at night.

Yes you've seen me. Yes I am the guy who ran the JB3 (tune only) on 100 octane with RFTs running slower traps and ETs - no brainer here, I didn't have traction. I love how you take cheap shots .

Yes you are right I am a reasonable person that is why when I see inflated statements, the truth being stretched, I join the discussion. Now in regards to the Procede tune being handicapped - I beg to differ. It had a slight disadvantage but not by as much as you made it sound to be - "handicapped." C'mon now! Do you do stand up at Tommy T's or perform events for the slighly disadvantaged too?

Yes you would be a believer of being proactive as your first iterations of the Procede had its fair share of incidents and hiccups. What better way to learn than through costly tuning mistakes (not at your expense) and on customers' cars.

[mmmotornutz]

Originally Posted by jhershorin

Two ways. First is an aftermarket knock sensor with an LED in the vent except it was taken out because it was always on haha. The second is a bolt that is drilled out leading to a tube into stethescopes so you can hear the knock.

Curious, how does this aftermarket knock sensor (not even going to mention the "bolt method) perform compared to the method the DME detects knock? How was this "aftermarket" instrument validated to prove that it was detecting true knock or not? From the sound of it, it couldn't even filter out noises outside of knock when it was placed by its user inside a vent. Who would put such a sensitive instrument inside a vent in the first place??? How is this aftermarket instrument engineered to filter out noise??

I guess I just don't understand why people are okay running the JB3. I know it makes power but doesnt it bother you that making that power is through extremely advanced timing till the motor knocks, having the stock ECU pull timing till it knocks again, and so forth. I guess I just believe in proper tuning. But then again I own the car and am not leasing so maybe I just care more - or actually understand tuning haha.

As a JB3 user, I have more confidence with BMW software engineering over some aftermarket piggyback to manage detonation. Which only has one method to handle detonation - through piggyback induced timing offsets which is IMO a band-aide solution sold as an engineering solution.

[jhershorin]

Originally Posted by mmmotornutz

Curious, how does this aftermarket knock sensor (not even going to mention the "bolt method) perform compared to the method the DME detects knock? How was this "aftermarket" instrument validated to prove that it was detecting true knock or not? From the sound of it, it couldn't even filter out noises outside of knock when it was placed by its user inside a vent. Who would put such a sensitive instrument inside a vent in the first place??? How is this aftermarket instrument engineered to filter out noise??



As a JB3 user, I have more confidence with BMW software engineering over some aftermarket piggyback to manage detonation. Which only has one method to handle detonation - through piggyback induced timing offsets which is IMO a band-aide solution sold as an engineering solution.

This is why you went with a JB3. You don't understand the most basic of concepts I mentioned.

The LED goes in the vent so it is visible. The knock sensor goes on the motor. The LED goes off every time knock is detected.

Making a knock mic/stethescope is one of the most widely used tuning tools.

As for your preference for the jb3 because it relies on factory knock sensor - wouldn't you prefer a system that makes 5whp less but never knocks instead of making a few whp more and knocking every time you get on the gas waiting for the ECU to pull timing?

Me and Shiv (he is the designer of his system and I am just a supporter of CP-e's) agree whole heartedly and are on the same page even though we are kinda competing? I guess educated people just agree more.

[RambleJ]

^^^Come on, you have to admit that your statement seems a little fishy. Especially since it has randomly popped up during this thread.
Maybe some further details would help, what map were you running, what octane where you running, when was this and what version jb3 were you using and what supporting mods did you have when this testing went down?
I mean leaving it as vague as you did makes this a little statement a lil iffy