[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by techlogik

Then I guess you guys stole BMW's original work since they created the original stock downpipes and design?

Just saying.

So I guess every single car now is just a knock off of the Ford model T

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

No, they just do a good job producing downpipes. I still dont understand why you cant figure out that some people who pay a lot of money for a car want a product they can for sure count on. If you want to buy cheap parts thats fine, that doesnt mean everyone else has to.

Hold up. This thread is about Raceland downpipes and people that are interested in knowing more and what they are getting.

The fact that all of the naysayers and lovers of name brand DPs come into the thread and start bashing with ZERO facts, evidence or proof that these DPs don't last (which they do) and perform well is the issue I have.

If someone wants to save some money to get the job done, that is their business.

I also find it ironic, that AR comes into this thread, after all the hoopla regarding their Single Turbo project thread, wanting to control every word that is written in it, comes in here with some photos about welds and internal polishing and showing photos of what we already know. Then starts bashing on the DPs...and obviously anybody who buys then. Then retracts and clarifies they aren't bashing on people for buying them...gee..thanks for that, like I care what AR has to say about some cheapo downpipes.

Hypocritical to say the least.


We know the Raceland Chinese made workmanship and quality is substandard, nobody has ever denied that. But what nobody has been able to deny and prove is their "lack" of performance, or durability at 1/3-1/5 the price of other name brands. That is fact...you can't debate that. Nobody has shown or proven otherwise.

So the $600-800 savings is a good one for many.

TS...good for you.

[cn555ic]

Again people are not understanding that for some paying the extra money to have it fit the first time around without having to tweak it to make it fit is worth the money...Performance to me is not the issue, its fitment period....It makes me laugh to read this thread and have people show pics of bungs that cannot fit the 02 sensors into place, bungs that are just tack welded and flanges that are not round...Performance is not the issue but the quality of the pipes is the issue...

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by techlogik

Hold up. This thread is about Raceland downpipes and people that are interested in knowing more and what they are getting.

The fact that all of the naysayers and lovers of name brand DPs come into the thread and start bashing with ZERO facts, evidence or proof that these DPs don't last (which they do) and perform well is the issue I have.

If someone wants to save some money to get the job done, that is their business.

I also find it ironic, that AR comes into this thread, after all the hoopla regarding their Single Turbo project thread, wanting to control every word that is written in it, comes in here with some photos about welds and internal polishing and showing photos of what we already know. Then starts bashing on the DPs...and obviously anybody who buys then. Then retracts and clarifies they aren't bashing on people for buying them...gee..thanks for that, like I care what AR has to say about some cheapo downpipes.

Hypocritical to say the least.


We know the Raceland Chinese made workmanship and quality is substandard, nobody has ever denied that. But what nobody has been able to deny and prove is their "lack" of performance, or durability at 1/3-1/5 the price of other name brands. That is fact...you can't debate that. Nobody has shown or proven otherwise.

So the $600-800 savings is a good one for many.

TS...good for you.

Well first of all, I bought AR because they are on sale, so you only saved $391 minus the cost of powder coating, so about $291. $291 for me is a good investment, because when I turn around and sell them im probably going to get $520~, when you turn around and sell them youll get $150~ so in the end we come close to even and I had a sure fit. So thats ok with me. As for the performance all I said is AR will get around 7whp more than Raceland. I never stated that Raceland downpipes wouldnt perform. If you would take youre time and READ what people post before assuming we are bashing you maybe you would realize I said the exact opposite.

[mycoupe]

Can't we all get along!?!?!

Also, for anyone saying that I personally probably won't keep my car for many years is wrong wrong wrong. I plan on keeping this thing till the wheels fall off. I am tired of making payments for one car after the other.

The Raceland DP's are, in my circumstance at least, a very good deal. They are inexpensive and I don't mind putting in some time fitting them. I used to be a tech at a Honda dealership and have no problems with working on cars or doing a little fab work.

As far as the MS or AR dp's...I will never say that they aren't gorgeous pieces and I do think they are worth a fair bit more than the Raceland's. 400% more...not for me, but I understand why the majority of people driving BMW's would purchase them. Not to bash, but the majority of you guys are either mechanically disinclined and/or just pay someone else to do the work on your car because you can. Not bashing, but it's true, and to be honest...if I was rolling in money and my time was that valuable, I would pay others to do my work too. It just all comes down to what you want and what you can do. I chose these and I have no doubt that they will last me till I get the AR single turbo kit.

Jeff

[Bakeme521]

Originally Posted by mycoupe

Can't we all get along!?!?!

Also, for anyone saying that I personally probably won't keep my car for many years is wrong wrong wrong. I plan on keeping this thing till the wheels fall off. I am tired of making payments for one car after the other.

The Raceland DP's are, in my circumstance at least, a very good deal. They are inexpensive and I don't mind putting in some time fitting them. I used to be a tech at a Honda dealership and have no problems with working on cars or doing a little fab work.

As far as the MS or AR dp's...I will never say that they aren't gorgeous pieces and I do think they are worth a fair bit more than the Raceland's. 400% more...not for me, but I understand why the majority of people driving BMW's would purchase them. Not to bash, but the majority of you guys are either mechanically disinclined and/or just pay someone else to do the work on your car because you can. Not bashing, but it's true, and to be honest...if I was rolling in money and my time was that valuable, I would pay others to do my work too. It just all comes down to what you want and what you can do. I chose these and I have no doubt that they will last me till I get the AR single turbo kit.

Jeff

Whether I could pay for someone to work on my car or not I still would do it myself. I don't trust anyone to work on my car except myself, and a few select people. I respect some hand fabbing any day to make something work, thats pretty much what I go by building my track car. But when it all comes down to it you get what you pay for, and that goes with anything. I'm not sitting here bashing the raceland DPs and saying those will never last, b/c I could be very wrong. I handmade the rest of my exhaust with scraps so I could afford the best downpipes just b/c I wanted to make sure I only have to do that once and I want to make sure they last as long as possible. I don't hope anything bad to come out of those DPs, I honestly hope those things last 200k so you can make a believer out of half the people on this forum.

[joed1]

Still quite new here. My previous car was an Acura TL. I had purchased the equivalent to that pipe for my car for $400.
I am sure there was/is a great deal of R&D to all exhaust parts as well .

I just wonder some times if the prices of these items are influenced by the cost of the car it goes in to.

http://www.acuratlparts.com/products/2/

There seems to be a great deal of work involved in the fabrication of these items, yet price discrepancy leaves one wondering. TL part contains many bends and many welds. I am not aware of the cost difference in types of stainless, but I can tell you, the quality of the one I purchased was excellent.

I also understand the importance of supporting vendors here, which furthers R&D for new items. Certainly another factor to consider.

Also another observation. There were more group buys for these high ticket items at my previous Acura forum. Made things more affordable for forum members and assured more sales for vendors.

[ar design]

400 series stainless, and mild steel flanges, and 2.25in tubing. Just for starters. And that is ONE pipe.

[BOOSTED4DR]

Originally Posted by techlogik

Hold up. This thread is about Raceland downpipes and people that are interested in knowing more and what they are getting.

The fact that all of the naysayers and lovers of name brand DPs come into the thread and start bashing with ZERO facts, evidence or proof that these DPs don't last (which they do) and perform well is the issue I have.

If someone wants to save some money to get the job done, that is their business.

I also find it ironic, that AR comes into this thread, after all the hoopla regarding their Single Turbo project thread, wanting to control every word that is written in it, comes in here with some photos about welds and internal polishing and showing photos of what we already know. Then starts bashing on the DPs...and obviously anybody who buys then. Then retracts and clarifies they aren't bashing on people for buying them...gee..thanks for that, like I care what AR has to say about some cheapo downpipes.

Hypocritical to say the least.


We know the Raceland Chinese made workmanship and quality is substandard, nobody has ever denied that. But what nobody has been able to deny and prove is their "lack" of performance, or durability at 1/3-1/5 the price of other name brands. That is fact...you can't debate that. Nobody has shown or proven otherwise.

So the $600-800 savings is a good one for many.

TS...good for you.

I Agree.... To each his own..........

Originally Posted by cn555ic

Again people are not understanding that for some paying the extra money to have it fit the first time around without having to tweak it to make it fit is worth the money...Performance to me is not the issue, its fitment period....It makes me laugh to read this thread and have people show pics of bungs that cannot fit the 02 sensors into place, bungs that are just tack welded and flanges that are not round...Performance is not the issue but the quality of the pipes is the issue...

True aswell glad Ive got the first batch no problems ...
Any ways whats up Steve.............

[AlterZgo]

Originally Posted by techlogik

Then I guess you guys stole BMW's original work since they created the original stock downpipes and design?

Just saying.

Analogy doesn't work. The AR downpipes are significantly different than stock. You cannot take a stock downpipe, build a jig around it and start mass manufacturing performance, catless or catted DPs. You need to measure, design, cut, fabricate a prototype, test it on various different models, then build a jig to "copy" (mass produce) the product. In the case of the rare CARB exempt products, you need to go through a lengthy and expensive certification process.

Investing in R&D is the most expensive part of manufacturing.

I'm sure the performance of the knockoffs are good and their durability may even be so as well. But, their business model is just dishonest. And, even if you don't care, understand that the long-term implications of this stuff will eventually kill, or at least severely limit, the availability of quality made products because those who actually do the R&D may find that it is no longer a profitable business to invest in.

But, then again, many (most?) people on these boards probably grew up during the "napster" era, don't see anything wrong w/ copying and selling someone else's work, and think my logic makes me sound like a quaint, naive, principled old-timer.

[forza1976]

Originally Posted by techlogik

Hypocritical to say the least.

I think this is one word you should steer very clear of Tech...

[sdstatestud88]

Why does every thread turn into a war haha...

[spdu4ea]

There are plenty of reasons to hate Raceland. They've done little/no R&D, shown no understanding of basic fluid dynamics, shown no understanding of basic metallurgy, their quality control is non existent, etc.

But Raceland is not a knock-off -- just low quality shit geared at those who think "a pipe is just a pipe." Knock-offs are a serious, but separate issue where Chinese companies steal someone else's design, manufacturer replicas (almost always of lower quality -- sometimes dangerously so), and sell them as if they were genuine.

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by AlterZgo

Analogy doesn't work. The AR downpipes are significantly different than stock. You cannot take a stock downpipe, build a jig around it and start mass manufacturing performance, catless or catted DPs. You need to measure, design, cut, fabricate a prototype, test it on various different models, then build a jig to "copy" (mass produce) the product. In the case of the rare CARB exempt products, you need to go through a lengthy and expensive certification process.

Investing in R&D is the most expensive part of manufacturing.

I'm sure the performance of the knockoffs are good and their durability may even be so as well. But, their business model is just dishonest. And, even if you don't care, understand that the long-term implications of this stuff will eventually kill, or at least severely limit, the availability of quality made products because those who actually do the R&D may find that it is no longer a profitable business to invest in.

But, then again, many (most?) people on these boards probably grew up during the "napster" era, don't see anything wrong w/ copying and selling someone else's work, and think my logic makes me sound like a quaint, naive, principled old-timer.

I've always contended that AR and anyone else can charge whatever they please. And anybody is welcome to spend whatever they want for a set of DPs...you want to spend $5000 on some DPs...go right ahead, means nothing to me personally.

The quality, the labor and R&D as you said is worth a lot of money when it is made in the USA compared to a Chinese made pipe. But that is primarily due to the cost of labor/living/materials in the US compared to China.

How do you or AR justify and prove the Raceland pipes are ripped off by a Chinese company? You seem to make that accusation as well as AR?!?! Do you think the Chinese just took ARs pipe and copied it? If so, they got it all wrong, because AR is a 3", where the Raceland is a 2.5" all the way. So obviously they didn't. They would still need to make jigs etc..and do their own R&D just to make even copies (allegedly..with no proof). Maybe they took a 2.5" of ARs original DP...don't know. But hey, AR got paid for them right if that was the case.

Someone in the US has a connection in China, or there is some entrepreneur in China who sees a market, has the means and makes a Downpipe to fit the application for much less with suspect obvious QC issues....such is life today. This is nothing new to auto performance mods. Same old song.

Still nobody has shown these Raceland pipes won't last, already people have posted who live in the NE/N and have driven through Winters with them and they are absolutely fine. Nobody has shown or proven otherwise. If you are concerned about fitmet, warranty, being able to call some guy in a shop here in the US to get an answer, or return a product etc...then don't buy these...that simple. We don't need your opinion about quality, we know that. That is the point of this thread, the QC of the batch. But the drability speculation and performance have NO basis and the facts have shown otherwise.

There are certain things that make sense to utilize a less expensive version available, I personally think DPs and FMICs are two of those where you can DIY and have a product that performs as well as the name brand vendors pimping their gear.

Look how many people, like myself, have Rep wheels. I guess **********s, or whoever sells wheels should also be ashamed as well as the buyer because we slighted BMW for not buying their overpriced factory OEM wheels to put on our cars.

[ar design]

I have never said the Chinese dps are a copy of ours. All the 2.5" Chinese DPs floating around are a copy of URs.....

[joed1]

Originally Posted by ar design

400 series stainless, and mild steel flanges, and 2.25in tubing. Just for starters. And that is ONE pipe.

304 vs 439 rationalizes double the price? (You gave the example)

One pipe with more labor than the two being discussed.

Mild steel conforms better. Isn't that why they choose it?

I am not targeting you here. Just amazed at the cost of some items here and the lack of group buys. Vendors are an important part of any forum. One's that work with it's members to provide group buys are even more so.

[Forcefed3]

I don't know if you realize this but there was just a sale on AR downpipes, $160 off.

Originally Posted by joed1

304 vs 439 rationalizes double the price? (You gave the example)

One pipe with more labor than the two being discussed.

Mild steel conforms better. Isn't that why they choose it?

I am not targeting you here. Just amazed at the cost of some items here and the lack of group buys. Vendors are an important part of any forum. One's that work with it's members to provide group buys are even more so.

[ar design]

Originally Posted by joed1

304 vs 439 rationalizes double the price? (You gave the example)

One pipe with more labor than the two being discussed.

Mild steel conforms better. Isn't that why they choose it?

I am not targeting you here. Just amazed at the cost of some items here and the lack of group buys. Vendors are an important part of any forum. One's that work with it's members to provide group buys are even more so.

Try looking up the cost of 439 vs 304... Mild steel flanges are drastically cheaper. Thats about it. Like, 50-70% cheaper.

That piece looks like it has 12 welds. A set of our downpipes has 18.

I do not think you will find a vendor on this board that has offered more sales or group buys, or has worked with more customers on this board.....

[joed1]

Originally Posted by ar design

Try looking up the cost of 439 vs 304... Mild steel flanges are drastically cheaper. Thats about it. Like, 50-70% cheaper.

That piece looks like it has 12 welds. A set of our downpipes has 18.

I do not think you will find a vendor on this board that has offered more sales or group buys, or has worked with more customers on this board.....

.
Andy, again I am not targeting you. I read the original post and my J pipe immediately came to mind.

I am not debating the that some materials are more expensive and I applaud your sales. I had done a search on group buys here. Saw more on electronics than perf. products.

If you have done more for members here, thank you. I was pointing out the lack of group buys in general. If I made you feel as if I was targeting you, I apologize. I understand we all have to make a living. I will no doubts be purchasing your product come spring time or, when a group buy is initiated, perhaps sooner.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by joed1

.
Andy, again I am not targeting you. I read the original post and my J pipe immediately came to mind.

I am not debating the that some materials are more expensive and I applaud your sales. I had done a search on group buys here. Saw more on electronics than perf. products.

If you have done more for members here, thank you. I was pointing out the lack of group buys in general. If I made you feel as if I was targeting you, I apologize. I understand we all have to make a living. I will no doubts be purchasing your product come spring time or, when a group buy is initiated, perhaps sooner.

AR has been one of the great vendors on this forum. They have produced a ton of products for our car with little to no issues at all. They take care of their customers. Our money is not just being pocketed by these guys either. They turned and invested about the last year in a single turbo upgrade for the N54 that the world is waiting for. These guys are the real deal and a huge asset to our community.

[youngnastyman]

I think its funny how so many people come in here to bash on those that purchased the raceland downpipes. I purchased the new batch and have yet to put them on but I could care less what someone on the internet who paid buku dollars for their pipes says - and really could care less about a vendor coming in to defend their product by bashing another one. The funny thing is why are you defending? Nobody here is saying that the racelands are better? So get a life - people will either buy your product or they won't. You coming in here to bash on another product just makes you that much lower.

And as far as the quality of the pipe - if you can give me one true example or instance of where a down-pipe cracking caused major engine failure then I will surely and immediately return my cheap downpipes. Until then, save it for the people who have money flowing out of their @&* and want to pay extra money for a similar product.

All of this talk flowing around is biased and subjective. Show us some definitive facts or let people be and get on with your life.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by youngnastyman

I think its funny how so many people come in here to bash on those that purchased the raceland downpipes. I purchased the new batch and have yet to put them on but I could care less what someone on the internet who paid buku dollars for their pipes says - and really could care less about a vendor coming in to defend their product by bashing another one. The funny thing is why are you defending? Nobody here is saying that the racelands are better? So get a life - people will either buy your product or they won't. You coming in here to bash on another product just makes you that much lower.

And as far as the quality of the pipe - if you can give me one true example or instance of where a down-pipe cracking caused major engine failure then I will surely and immediately return my cheap downpipes. Until then, save it for the people who have money flowing out of their @&* and want to pay extra money for a similar product.

All of this talk flowing around is biased and subjective. Show us some definitive facts or let people be and get on with your life.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316974