[335e92tx]

Originally Posted by tan_rich

I see thanks, i'm learning to read and understand the logs more. Always good imo to get someone elses opinion and you did just that. The ambient temp was probably around mid 70s, maybe almost 80 today but i did do the pull after some stop and go traffic. I mixed in a 2 gallons of e85 prior to this log to clean out my timing issue, it should be fine on 93 stg1+ iirc. How worried should i be about the fuel trims? I also think my o2 sensors may be going bad. Have had a shadow code pop up, but i cleared and it hasnt come back since.

Reset adapts after you put on DPs. Drive it a while and relog. If trims are still +/- 10 percent a custom tune is likely required. With 60K on o2s they probably are slower reacting .. so that might be some of it..

Question regarding load, how much difference from targeted load should be considered acceptable?

Depends on environmentals.
If air has good density altitude (prob somewhere less than 1500), the two should be less than 10 percent. Otherwise there will be a good delta.

Also I believed that the dct does close throttle a bit on shift to lessen
the impact on the dct. Ill be installing downpipes soon, so stg2 or custom tune once i get my fuel pump in as well. Only concern is how well the dct will handle running stg2.

It does with the OTS maps. But doesnt have to. DCT can take much more torque than the zfs. Custom tune is the best solution.

[335e92tx]

Originally Posted by RSL

Dealer finally got air bags to do the recall and flashed back to my stock bin, so PSA for everyone that gets panties in a wad over timing corrections. Stock bin on 93 First is a standing, normal start - all vacuum, no boost. Second is 3rd gear, no overboost (13.5psi peak). RR600s, AFE Stage 2, Evo 2 Perf, Cobb catted and all the corrections are in vacuum up to 10psi only (low load). It can all be tuned out, but the point being, even straight from BMW, corrections can be and are rampant in specific circumstances. For the record, total advance never goes negative, fairly high targets are just being reined in.

Based on all Iv picked up from you and some others (FCobra,, bq ..), managing loads via timing is one of the fastest and most consistent DME protects avail. BC the power cuts that come from an OEM map have to be for basically any situation (complete DSC cut in) all the protects are more often used and for a max HP effort that is more drastic than necessary... and something more appropriate can be mapped in for 'our specific' -(read WFO) needs. Just trying to put some context in what I see is common tuner behavior now that people have a better idea what can be done further down in the DME.

[RSL]

Originally Posted by 335e92tx

Based on all Iv picked up from you and some others (FCobra,, bq ..), managing loads via timing is one of the fastest and most consistent DME protects avail. BC the power cuts that come from an OEM map have to be for basically any situation (complete DSC cut in) all the protects are more often used and for a max HP effort that is more drastic than necessary... and something more appropriate can be mapped in for 'our specific' -(read WFO) needs. Just trying to put some context in what I see is common tuner behavior now that people have a better idea what can be done further down in the DME.

Timing itself isn't actually a very useful tool to control load per se, but it's obviously safer for the motor to dump it when needed and is a quick way to remove power during interventions like DTC (in addition to load target reduction, throttle closure, WGDC reductions, torque reduction, etc.). In essence, timing reductions are a small, but important, part of overall emergency torque/power reduction schemes. That will remain whether stock map or not.

Yes, stock bin kind of has to be "throw a bunch of shit at the wall and see what sticks" since it has to work in all environments and on all levels of fuel. Target for the ideals and let the DME remove what can't be used. In the stock part-throttle cases above though, the corrections are combo of high timing targets and other things that also happen to fall within normal cruise RPM/loads, so they're likely targeted for emissions/fuel economy at cruise rather than light acceleration, but still cause corrections at cruise without a change. In effect, though, the engine is still using as much timing as possible, just not all that the stock bin is commanding. At part-throttle, it almost doesn't matter, but at WOT, there can be output cost.

Custom tune will both target specifically what a car can actually use (or a hair more) and generally leave margins between limits/actuals (including load) to avoid nannies at WOT...in addition to a lot of other things of course. Net result are cleaner logs and more power. Case in point, I run >20psi and +175whp correction-free on a custom tune with the same gas used in those stock bin screens above lol

[335e92tx]

Originally Posted by RSL

Timing itself isn't actually a very useful tool to control load per se, but it's obviously safer for the motor to dump it when needed and is a quick way to remove power during interventions like DTC (in addition to load target reduction, throttle closure, WGDC reductions, torque reduction, etc.). In essence, timing reductions are a small, but important, part of overall emergency torque/power reduction schemes. That will remain whether stock map or not.

im not too versed in some of the more subtle aspects of load targeting.. Probably good I dont do it for a livelihood ;-)

[tan_rich]

I tried the stg2 map on suggestion of 335e92x. I feel as if the turbos are a bit lazy at the beginning. Though it may be due to stg 2 targeting more aggressive load earlier on and still having the oem downpipes.
Mhd stg2, linear throttle enabled.

https://datazap.me/u/tanrich/log-150...a=3-5-18-19-22

[RSL]

Originally Posted by 335e92tx

im not too versed in some of the more subtle aspects of load targeting.. Probably good I dont do it for a livelihood ;-)

I just learned for myself. I had prior tuning experience, but turbo BMW was a thoroughly different and slightly aggravating at times lol I got a custom tune almost right off the bat so I had something decent to run while I took my time working things through on my own. I also asked a lot of questions

Originally Posted by tan_rich

I tried the stg2 map on suggestion of 335e92x. I feel as if the turbos are a bit lazy at the beginning.
Mhd stg2, linear throttle enabled.

https://datazap.me/u/tanrich/log-150...a=3-5-18-19-22

That looks perfectly clean during 1 gear, but solidly dropping to open loop or cat protection after the shift (0% trims). It did it on one of the Stg 1+ logs, but the banks took turns. I've not seen anything like that before on alternating banks, but goes to 10:1 AFR / 0% on one bank and then swaps to 10:1 / 0% on the other after the next shift.

These pulls:
https://datazap.me/u/tanrich/log-150...=14-93&mark=73

Prior logs:
https://datazap.me/u/tanrich/log-150...3-24&zoom=0-43

I'd carefully try Stg 2+ 91. Do a full 3rd gear only first and check logs. If they still look good, do 3rd shift into 4th for a few hundred RPM only and let off. Check to see if the open loop hits on that one or not. If not, do it a few more times to confirm. 91 octane maps may just go pig rich on shifts, triggering protection.

It does it on shifts at 4500rpm and 6500rpm, so it's not RPM/load dependent and probably something triggered during the shift itself. I honestly have no idea what the "DCT" option is doing on those OTS maps, but you might also try re-flashing with AT option instead and see what changes. You had significantly lower IATs on these pulls, so running a bit less boost.

Also, and I've noticed this on other logs as well, there is a HUGE variation on torque output between your stage 1+ and 2 logs, with Stage 1 having significantly more than 2. I've seen similar 110-120nm differences on Stage 1 91 and 93 maps (purple lines in my overlay screen - 91 tq output is up near the blue boost lines, dashed 93 tq output runs through the middle). The differences are neither load nor AFR based, so they're either different factors tables or load to torque for some unknown reason. Logs in my overlay were the same car, non-DCT.

EDIT: log screen so easier to see.

[tan_rich]

Originally Posted by RSL

That looks perfectly clean during 1 gear, but solidly dropping to open loop or cat protection after the shift (0% trims). It did it on one of the Stg 1+ logs, but the banks took turns. I've not seen anything like that before on alternating banks, but goes to 10:1 AFR / 0% on one bank and then swaps to 10:1 / 0% on the other after the next shift.

These pulls:
https://datazap.me/u/tanrich/log-150...=14-93&mark=73

Prior logs:
https://datazap.me/u/tanrich/log-150...3-24&zoom=0-43

I'd carefully try Stg 2+ 91. Do a full 3rd gear only first and check logs. If they still look good, do 3rd shift into 4th for a few hundred RPM only and let off. Check to see if the open loop hits on that one or not. If not, do it a few more times to confirm. 91 octane maps may just go pig rich on shifts, triggering protection.

It does it on shifts at 4500rpm and 6500rpm, so it's not RPM/load dependent and probably something triggered during the shift itself. I honestly have no idea what the "DCT" option is doing on those OTS maps, but you might also try re-flashing with AT option instead and see what changes. You had significantly lower IATs on these pulls, so running a bit less boost.

Also, and I've noticed this on other logs as well, there is a HUGE variation on torque output between your stage 1+ and 2 logs, with Stage 1 having significantly more than 2. I've seen similar 110-120nm differences on Stage 1 91 and 93 maps (purple lines in my overlay screen - 91 tq output is up near the blue boost lines, dashed 93 tq output runs through the middle). The differences are neither load nor AFR based, so they're either different factors tables or load to torque for some unknown reason. Logs in my overlay were the same car, non-DCT.

EDIT: log screen so easier to see.

I believe the reason that it went rich on shift is from what I read, the DCT cuts ignition on shifts to ease the the impact on the DCT. I could have misinterpreted what i read though. Also the fact that the OTS MHD maps may not be specifically designed for the DCT may come into play here. The lower IATs is most likely due to the log being at night, it's pretty cool at night about mid 60s and the day times is about 80s which the other logs were taken at.


I'm also surprised that my boost psi was fairly low for the stg2 maps considering they peak at 16-18, but that may be due to the oem catted downpipes still on. For the torque difference, would enable linear throttle have anything to do with the difference? I wouldn't think there is but the stg2 log was the first log i did with linear throttle enabled. Ill try another log tomorrow with normal throttle mapping.

[335e92tx]

Originally Posted by RSL

I just learned for myself. I had prior tuning experience, but turbo BMW was a thoroughly different and slightly aggravating at times lol I got a custom tune almost right off the bat so I had something decent to run while I took my time working things through on my own. I also asked a lot of questions

Im pumpin you and some others for info a little bit at a time; check's in the mail... ;-)
thanks

Ill come a few miles west in Tx some time (I guess your near aus) and buy u a beer..

[335e92tx]

Originally Posted by tan_rich

I believe the reason that it went rich on shift is from what I read, the DCT cuts ignition on shifts to ease the the impact on the DCT. I could have misinterpreted what i read though. Also the fact that the OTS MHD maps may not be specifically designed for the DCT may come into play here. The lower IATs is most likely due to the log being at night, it's pretty cool at night about mid 60s and the day times is about 80s which the other logs were taken at.

Eh, prob something else coming into play. The switching of backs to open is the strange part. IN the early stages of my etune from BQ I did see one bank go open on 1 gear and on two disparate logs.. but that got worked out. And BELIEVE ME, the DCT is tough. Big boost on ST guys in .eu using DCT.


Eh, shouldnt make that much of a diff in DA. Not unless the air was MUCH dryer also. IC can still heatsoak in 20min depending on traffic.

I'm also surprised that my boost psi was fairly low for the stg2 maps considering they peak at 16-18, but that may be due to the oem catted downpipes still on. For the torque difference, would enable linear throttle have anything to do with the difference? I wouldn't think there is but the stg2 log was the first log i did with linear throttle enabled. Ill try another log tomorrow with normal throttle mapping.

Yep, load reqs are in the 165 range. Way low for what that map should have. WGs are just loafin.

Re: Linear Throttle - Not likely.

Originally Posted by RSL

That looks perfectly clean during 1 gear, but solidly dropping to open loop or cat protection after the shift (0% trims).
.

It hit the torque limiter on the shift to 4th.

[RSL]

Originally Posted by tan_rich

I believe the reason that it went rich on shift is from what I read, the DCT cuts ignition on shifts to ease the the impact on the DCT. I could have misinterpreted what i read though. Also the fact that the OTS MHD maps may not be specifically designed for the DCT may come into play here. The lower IATs is most likely due to the log being at night, it's pretty cool at night about mid 60s and the day times is about 80s which the other logs were taken at.

I'm also surprised that my boost psi was fairly low for the stg2 maps considering they peak at 16-18, but that may be due to the oem catted downpipes still on. For the torque difference, would enable linear throttle have anything to do with the difference? I wouldn't think there is but the stg2 log was the first log i did with linear throttle enabled. Ill try another log tomorrow with normal throttle mapping.

I'm sure the ignition cut doesn't help, but shouldn't be triggering protection on a properly set map. Cooler temps will cause boost difference even on the same map, but seemed a little low either way. WGDC might be a little high for the boost, but not sure what your other mods are and may be just fine. Nah, I ran 19-20psi on the stock catted DPs, but don't remember what my DCs were.

The torque output values are tune-based and have to be set differently in the maps. The DCT option may be changing load to torque settings, but there is still a large disparity between maps with the same tranny options set.

Originally Posted by 335e92tx

Im pumpin you and some others for info a little bit at a time; check's in the mail... ;-)
thanks

Ill come a few miles west in Tx some time (I guess your near aus) and buy u a beer..

lol Yeah, north Austin.

Originally Posted by 335e92tx

It hit the torque limiter on the shift to 4th.

I hit limiters on shift all the time when I'm playing with things, never hit protection. I'm going to stay on the stock map for a bit after I get my car back from the air bag recall and mess around with torque/shifts on it.

[tan_rich]

Originally Posted by 335e92tx

Eh, prob something else coming into play. The switching of backs to open is the strange part. IN the early stages of my etune from BQ I did see one bank go open on 1 gear and on two disparate logs.. but that got worked out. And BELIEVE ME, the DCT is tough. Big boost on ST guys in .eu using DCT.

I see, what would be cause of the switching backs? I will definitely get a custom tune but itll be after i get a stg2 lpfp, install the downpipes. The DCT is definitely tough as long as you do the necessary preperations.

Originally Posted by 335e92tx

Yep, load reqs are in the 165 range. Way low for what that map should have. WGs are just loafin.

It hit the torque limiter on the shift to 4th.

Yup, the boost psi seemed low for the requested load. Not too sure whats happening their. Definitely going to do more logs tonight/tomorrow.

What is the reason for the torque limiter? I assume its to lessen the impact on the drivetrain, similar to the ignition cut or throttle closures.

Originally Posted by RSL

I'm sure the ignition cut doesn't help, but shouldn't be triggering protection on a properly set map. Cooler temps will cause boost difference even on the same map, but seemed a little low either way. WGDC might be a little high for the boost, but not sure what your other mods are and may be just fine. Nah, I ran 19-20psi on the stock catted DPs, but don't remember what my DCs were.

The torque output values are tune-based and have to be set differently in the maps. The DCT option may be changing load to torque settings, but there is still a large disparity between maps with the same tranny options set.

Yup, my boost definitely seemed low for what it was.
My current mods are
DCI
ER Intercooler
ER Chargepipe w/ forge diverters

I see, then a custom tune will definitely get all the torque output values in working order. Im still curious about how the OST maps affect the DCT. I see you guys asking on the MHD thread and keep following it.

[Sgop335]

Originally Posted by tan_rich

I see, what would be cause of the switching backs? I will definitely get a custom tune but itll be after i get a stg2 lpfp, install the downpipes. The DCT is definitely tough as long as you do the necessary preperations.



Yup, the boost psi seemed low for the requested load. Not too sure whats happening their. Definitely going to do more logs tonight/tomorrow.

What is thet.

No, the boost target and boost is not low for the requested load of 168...

[aghassemi91]

Originally Posted by 335e92tx

Not completely unheard of - eth will keep temps down some. Depends on fueling. Will have a look..

Well, right off the batt, this one the IATs go up 30 degrees in 4secs. https://datazap.me/u/aghassemi91/log...-22&zoom=19-44
,
This one is even worse - its like 45 degrees in 5.5 seconds. https://datazap.me/u/aghassemi91/log...-22&zoom=24-72
Are you sure you arn't driving on venus??

So I dont see a reference to an IC in your mod list. Is your IC still stock??

Sorry, I forgot to mention that the IC is in fact still stock. I initially didn't think that was the issue b/c I had only seen the code once during the few months I was running a custom map.

[335e92tx]

Originally Posted by aghassemi91

Sorry, I forgot to mention that the IC is in fact still stock. I initially didn't think that was the issue b/c I had only seen the code once during the few months I was running a custom map.

Well, your prob alright for now but Id start saving for an IC..

[aghassemi91]

Originally Posted by 335e92tx

Well, your prob alright for now but Id start saving for an IC..

I'll pick up an IC soon, but do you think there could be anything else that might be causing the code to come on? Also, any idea as to why the car isn't hitting its targeted psi?

[335e92tx]

Originally Posted by aghassemi91

I'll pick up an IC soon, but do you think there could be anything else that might be causing the code to come on? Also, any idea as to why the car isn't hitting its targeted psi?

Iv never heard of an IAT code really. But I haven't seen temps like yours either. So what was ambient temp when this log was recorded?

And was humidity high??

If so, its hard to say how much the DME is cutting power due to bad enviromentals. That would keep you from targets (at least load and prob boost also).

Id say get a log the next time a cold front comes thru. note ambient temp, baro, and humitity (and preferable physical location as best as possible).. that will get some basic DA info..

[aghassemi91]

Originally Posted by 335e92tx

Iv never heard of an IAT code really. But I haven't seen temps like yours either. So what was ambient temp when this log was recorded?

And was humidity high??

If so, its hard to say how much the DME is cutting power due to bad enviromentals. That would keep you from targets (at least load and prob boost also).

Id say get a log the next time a cold front comes thru. note ambient temp, baro, and humitity (and preferable physical location as best as possible).. that will get some basic DA info..

From what I recall, the temperature outside was probably in the high 70s-low 80's w/ low humidity. Location was around 134 ft. above sea level if that makes any difference. I'll keep a note of everything next time I do some logs & will get back to you. Thanks again for your help!

[335e92tx]

Originally Posted by aghassemi91

From what I recall, the temperature outside was probably in the high 70s-low 80's w/ low humidity. Location was around 134 ft. above sea level if that makes any difference. I'll keep a note of everything next time I do some logs & will get back to you. Thanks again for your help!

Or just do a screen cap of the current conditions from your local weather from your phone. That should be good.

[mfractal]

Hey Gurus

Just looking for some input on my logs.

Basically my mods are in the signature, since our gas here is E25 (Brazil) i am running MHD e25 map.

Logged the car yesterday and noticed WGDC are very high and i am not reaching the boost / load targets.

here's a log of a 3rd gear pull: (ambient temp of around 85f)
https://datazap.me/u/mfractal/n54-33...&data=16-17-23

I've replaced both boost solenoids and went on a logging run this morning again.
It definitely improved the situation but i am still not convinced i am not leaking boost somewhere. Next step would be a boost leak test (even though i've inspected all possible leak points and haven't found any issues).
Oh, new VAC lines all over.

here ambient temp is lower, around 68f.

https://datazap.me/u/mfractal/335i-n...og=0&data=3-23

Any input would be highly appreciated.

[335e92tx]

Well, the first thing that strikes me is the 13.7 baro..so what elevation is this?? Im thinkin more 1800'? That is prob the key right there. You got less air so the turbos are gonna need to work harder to give you the boost. You got a little timing being pulled in the middle of 4th gear for a couple of cyls. Im kinda surprised the AFR is as close as it is consider its got eth and an OTS map.

A custom tune could prob work thru some of those things and free up the WGs a little.

[mfractal]

Originally Posted by 335e92tx

Well, the first thing that strikes me is the 13.7 baro..so what elevation is this?? Im thinkin more 1800'? That is prob the key right there. You got less air so the turbos are gonna need to work harder to give you the boost. You got a little timing being pulled in the middle of 4th gear for a couple of cyls. Im kinda surprised the AFR is as close as it is consider its got eth and an OTS map.

A custom tune could prob work thru some of those things and free up the WGs a little.

Thanks for the input! around 600m elevation here. The app on my iphone says around 13.75 psi of barometric pressure so it's correct.

So it doesn't look like a boost leak to you ?

[335e92tx]

Originally Posted by mfractal

Thanks for the input! around 600m elevation here. The app on my iphone says around 13.75 psi of barometric pressure so it's correct.

So it doesn't look like a boost leak to you ?

kind of hard to say with the altitude issue.
Plus you should have boost mean logged. Thats what the DME uses to identify the delta that would cause a 30FF. You could go to a S1 map maybe and see how close the two track. Most the time Boost mean and load actual (edited) for those maps are just dead on boost targets and requests (its only 13psi but it should give you an idea if there is anything obvious).

you could maybe download the three boost data points, and the WGs values and see how close they track as indication if they are causal. But I dont know enough about them really.