[dxb335d]

well im frickin annoyed.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

well im frickin annoyed.

Don't take the bait Carlos.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by needforspeed

Don't take the bait Carlos.

Ok im calm now, too late for a cuppa char tho...



Another beer it is then

Carlos

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Evil Diesel

'profits' - must be a state run monopoly then.

I suppose that 1.9% will be the order of the day then. Proper shite if you think (like I do) that inflation is running at 6 - 10%.

I can't quite compute that inflation rate.

Everything I buy seems to be getting cheaper at the moment

[Gibbo]

Originally Posted by needforspeed

I can't quite compute that inflation rate.

Everything I buy seems to be getting cheaper at the moment

I think these items are going up

Fuel, Fuel bills, mortgages (over the last couple of yrs), food, pensions, cars, eating out, holidays, leisure activities..........for starters

[RockIt]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Nah im pissed off now, dont laugh at my expense

I am annoyed, dont think im thick because i cant be arsed to read everything, as proved by evils comment which i didnt even read. mY prob is i dont read everything, missed something them commented which to Steve made me look thick?! i Would not say i was the thick one, i aint fucked ma car

Carl, if you post things that other people may find amusing, then people will laugh. Whether intentional or not, your comment regarding Evil paying my wages was fucking hilarious. Fact. I therefore shared it with the wife, as she happens to be in the room and was wondering why I was laughing aloud. As stated, though, I wouldn't go so far as to be as blunt as Steve was. I haven't been rude to you directly, or even pissed about with photoshop images etc. as others have done, so don't have a hissy fit with me. Expect to take some flak on a public forum and take it on the chin. As you say, you don't read everything and this is often the cause of your downfall. BTW, What the hell has 'fucking ma car' got to do with anything?! Or is that a butt plug reference?

[dxb335d]

i wasnt having a pop at you Gav, it was just i used your comment as a referance as you was also larfing but not being as rude as Stevie A!

[RockIt]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

i wasnt having a pop at you Gav, it was just i used your comment as a referance as you was also larfing but not being as rude as Stevie A!

Fair enough. Now get back to your beer, it'll be getting warm.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Gibbo

I think these items are going up

Fuel, Fuel bills, mortgages (over the last couple of yrs), food, pensions, cars, eating out, holidays, leisure activities..........for starters

I'll agree on Holidays and fuel.

Pensions are more of a legislative adjustment. Mortgages have been artificially low for the last 3 years and so far as I can see the remainder are still very low.

[Evil Diesel]

Originally Posted by beemerbird

Your car should be going even better now I reckon

Funny you say that - I did notice last night massive punch in 2nd (didn't get much beyond third the whole day) - certainly more than the day before.

Also the DTC has had less involvement - even in the ice this morning.

I did give Ian a ring at the time to see if it was just me but he had been parked up on the M25 all day.

[vivekk]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

i wasnt having a pop at you Gav, it was just i used your comment as a referance as you was also larfing but not being as rude as Stevie A!

Steve is certainly a 'rude' boy & I'm sure he deserves a kick up the ar*e, or perhaps even a butt plug?

Here's a cup of tea, a Rich Tea & a nice picture for you to 'relax' over, Carlos.





Viv

[NFS]

Originally Posted by vivekk

Viv

I think I might put in a new chimney and leave out some verve cliquot on chrismas eve

Do you think that would entice her ?

[vivekk]

Originally Posted by needforspeed

I think I might put in a new chimney and leave out some verve cliquot on chrismas eve

Do you think that would entice her ?

You'd be better off leaving your keys under the door mat & trying a bottle of WKD, NFS.


Viv

[Hotcoupe]

Back on topic,just received the latest update on proposed action.

Transaction 2007 the group behind the fuel protests taking place around the country tomorrow, have said that the protests are aiming to “fire a warning shot to the government.” David Handley, spokesperson for group, warned, “it's our intention to come back in January and let's put it like this, it won't be quite as peaceful as it's going to be tomorrow.”

He continued: “we have got contingency plans for where the next stage of this will go. I'm obviously not going to discuss that because the next element has got to be a surprise. That's the only way that you'll have the impact with government to make them realise that you mean business.”

Handley hopes the protests will show politicians how angry motorists are at rising fuel prices. Transaction 2007 blame the current tax system, whereby duty and VAT are added the price of petrol. He said: “we have not got an issue with tax if tax is totally transparent. It's got to be fair, it's got to be shown that the money that's drawn from the revenue from fuel, should be used to create a better infrastructure, better investment in transport and not used to prop up the inefficient management of the cash flow from government.”

The protests tomorrow will start at 10am at fuel refineries and depots across the country, including those in Manchester, Southampton, Liverpool, Essex, Cardiff, and Lincolnshire. Despite the threat of further, potentially more disruptive action early next year, Handley maintains that tomorrow's action will be peaceful. Transaction 2007 were involved in the fuel protests in 2000, where lorry drivers blockaded refineries, leading to nationwide fuel shortages. But Handley maintained: “we were accused last time by a lot of people who didn't want to take part of not doing it in the correct manner. This time we're doing it in the correct way. We're sending a message in a peaceful form, but if people don't address that and listen to us then 2000 is likely to happen all over again.”

Early indications from polls and comments on our blog have suggested that whilst motorists are angry at rising fuel prices, opinions are divided as to whether targeting refineries is the best method of protest. In addition, only 183 people have said they will be protesting tomorrow. It has been suggested that it would be better to send a petition to the government or protest in London, because they are responsible for the tax on fuel.

However, Stephen Joseph from the Campaign for Better Transport believes that reducing tax on fuel would be the worst thing the government could do. “It gives motorists the false sense of security that they can continue to drive around in their gas guzzlers. High tax acts as an incentive for motorists to switch to greener alternatives.” He continued, “fuel tax in the UK is not drastically higher than the rest of Europe. We are now only around 1% higher than countries such as Germany, France and the Netherlands.”

So are we paying too much in tax on our fuel in the UK? Should we ensure that all our tax gets spent on motoring? Or should we continue to tax at the current rate to encourage greener alternatives?

Interesting comment by a poster,

I fully support any protest that is about to happen, as a father of two on a pretty low income and have to travel 21 miles to work and the same home again these petrol prices are killing me !! I too have signed loads of on line petitions like gerald and with the same outcome, i would like to see some of the fat lazy government get by on a low income and still manage to keep their car on the road "legally" i am just managing it, and for those who think a car is a luxury mine is definetly not, as there are no public transport at 4:30 am for me to get to my work. I say good luck tomorrow and whatever else these protesters manage to pull off thank you.

Some would say, well you bought the car, surely you can and will afford the increases, others would have some sympathy and support, me included!

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

However, Stephen Joseph from the Campaign for Better Transport believes that reducing tax on fuel would be the worst thing the government could do. “It gives motorists the false sense of security that they can continue to drive around in their gas guzzlers. High tax acts as an incentive for motorists to switch to greener alternatives.” He continued, “fuel tax in the UK is not drastically higher than the rest of Europe. We are now only around 1% higher than countries such as Germany, France and the Netherlands.

I agree with this guy. Reducing tax on fuel sends out exactly the wrong message.

[Hotcoupe]

needforspeed Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotcoupe
However, Stephen Joseph from the Campaign for Better Transport believes that reducing tax on fuel would be the worst thing the government could do. “It gives motorists the false sense of security that they can continue to drive around in their gas guzzlers. High tax acts as an incentive for motorists to switch to greener alternatives.” He continued, “fuel tax in the UK is not drastically higher than the rest of Europe. We are now only around 1% higher than countries such as Germany, France and the Netherlands.

I agree with this guy. Reducing tax on fuel sends out exactly the wrong message.

Yes NFS, why am I not surprised you agree with someone who heads a group that Campaigns for better transport, which has about as much chance as being successful as me of winning the lottery. I don't buy a ticket.

So ok, as you think I'm rude let's examine your extract above, and I will try and avoid what you accuse me of.

Firstly Stephen Joseph and his campaign,
Can you cite any evidence of any improvements in better transport?
Is the better transport you will tell us of, available to all, of course when I say all, I mean those that live in rural communities, those that currently rely on cars as their only means of transport, and continually struggle to afford the ever increasing motoring costs.

So ok, now you will no doubt ask me to prove the opposite arguement, i.e. that there is no alternative,as there is no better public transport,nor will there be, well there is lots of evidence out there, but I will use myself as an example.I commute to London by car, there are occasions when I do go by train, but I go by car because:
A. Public Transport can NOT get me there on time.
B. It is 3 times the price it would cost by car.
C. It is unreliable, it is filthy, it is overcrowded, the costs are rising above the rate of inflation in the New Year.

“It gives motorists the false sense of security that they can continue to drive around in their gas guzzlers.

Very emotive spiel, typical in this day and age,and so wide of the mark.Modern cars are increasingly getter better in terms of fuel efficiency, look at the recent improvements BMW have made.

High tax acts as an incentive for motorists to switch to greener alternatives.”

And what are these greener alternatives?

I look forward to your response NFS, as I recently read a comment of yours on another thread that was something along the lines of " I like a good arguement!"

[beemerbird]

Drax power station produces more pollution in one day than all the cars in Britain produce in one year. Developing third world countries produce alarming amounts of pollution - signed upto the kyote treaty? The USA, yeah right!!

I'm all in favour of reducing so called global warming, although some 'experts' are contending that this phenomenon would and is occurring naturally. I object to any attempt at what is such a small reduction to this problem at the expense of the masses. Personally I can afford the fuel cost increases, but living not far from a typical northern working class city, I can empathise with these people who will struggle to finance the price increases. They live in a democracy where freedom of choice/speech exists and have every right to own and run a car. The gap between the haves and have nots should not be widened under any circumstances. This in itself creates major instability within any society. Obviously fuel costs are only one of many commodities that are subject to an ever increasing expenditure forced upon the general population. My empathy with 'my neighbours' is not based on any middle class guilt, purely on the grounds of understanding in a small way their 'lot in life'.

Perhaps we should all be forced to drive small engined diesels cars then, obviously for reduced co2 emissions, economy and saving fossil fuels. That would be a vote winner.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

Yes NFS, why am I not surprised you agree with someone who heads a group that Campaigns for better transport, which has about as much chance as being successful as me of winning the lottery. I don't buy a ticket.

So ok, as you think I'm rude let's examine your extract above, and I will try and avoid what you accuse me of.

Firstly Stephen Joseph and his campaign,
Can you cite any evidence of any improvements in better transport?
Is the better transport you will tell us of, available to all, of course when I say all, I mean those that live in rural communities, those that currently rely on cars as their only means of transport, and continually struggle to afford the ever increasing motoring costs.

So ok, now you will no doubt ask me to prove the opposite arguement, i.e. that there is no alternative,as there is no better public transport,nor will there be, well there is lots of evidence out there, but I will use myself as an example.I commute to London by car, there are occasions when I do go by train, but I go by car because:
A. Public Transport can NOT get me there on time.
B. It is 3 times the price it would cost by car.
C. It is unreliable, it is filthy, it is overcrowded, the costs are rising above the rate of inflation in the New Year.



Very emotive spiel, typical in this day and age,and so wide of the mark.Modern cars are increasingly getter better in terms of fuel efficiency, look at the recent improvements BMW have made.



And what are these greener alternatives?

I look forward to your response NFS, as I recently read a comment of yours on another thread that was something along the lines of " I like a good arguement!"

I'm happy to chat about things and debate them, but not if it's going to get personal. If you can avoid that then great

I'll start of by saying that I think you have formed some incorrect assumptions about me based on misunderstanding of some of the previous exchanges we have had in this thread.

My position is pretty simple really. Fossil fuels are running out and they are a major contributor to climate change.

I realise that you don't believe in man made global warming.

However, my position is different. Global warming definitely exists and our actions MIGHT be worsening it. We simply don't know either way, so I'm going to support those people who want to reduce CO2 emissions "just in case".

If they are wrong, the downside is some changes in our economy. If they are right and we ignore them the downside is pretty disasterous.

So .. fuel shouldn't be cheap.

If it were not for high fuel prices and selective taxation, manufacturers wouldn't focus on emission reduction and we wouldn't have the highly efficient engines we have today - especially the diesels.

I firmly believe that this has to continue, into fuel cells or whatever other technology can be invented to allow us to live more sustainably.

There should be a financial disincentive to people like myself who want to run inefficient cars. It should cost me more and fuel pricing helps to achieve this.

I have sympathy for those people who are particularly reliant on their cars and for whom the current pricing is a financial burdon.

However, I also believe that they are not as numerous as you would imagine and that this issue is really being driven by the road hauliers association for commercial reasons.

I don't support Stephen Joseph or his campaign. I agree with him only on the point I stated - that decreasing the cost of fuel is a bad idea.

I don't think there is a debate to be had between us regarding public transport as I entirely agree that it needs improvement, that financially it doesn't work as an option for people who already run cars and that it doesn't necessarily operate when and where people need it.

[peterg1965]

I feel very strongly about this subject but have kept my silence in this debate up until now. The word from the press, if you believe what you read, is that the Govt will make an 'extra' £4bn in fuel taxes this year as a result of the increase in the price of oil. Gordon Brown and Co would be very unwise to just keep quiet over all this. Yes, if fuel protests occur they will use the full might of the law (including anti terrorist legislation!) and quite rightly so, to curb any illegal activity, but they will not endear themselves to the public in doing so.

If I was in charge, I would use the tax windfall to make a very positive public gesture. It would take the form of giving every schoolchild (under the age of 18) a free bus pass (public transport pass) to use whenever and wherever they wanted. That would have the effect of appeasing the Green brigade, discouraging the 'school run' for those with alternatives, and doing something tangible and positive for most families up and down this great country of ours. It would hopefully encourage youngsters to think that public transport has the potential to be as good as the car. It may be a very 'socialist' thing to do, which goes against my natural inclinations, but it would, and could be, one of the best things that ever came out of the Houses of Parliament in decades.

[Hotcoupe]

I'm happy to chat about things and debate them, but not if it's going to get personal. If you can avoid that then great

No probs NFS

I'll start of by saying that I think you have formed some incorrect assumptions about me based on misunderstanding of some of the previous exchanges we have had in this thread.

OK, fair comment, time to move forward then.

My position is pretty simple really. Fossil fuels are running out and they are a major contributor to climate change.

Agreed on your first comment, but I do have reservations about your second point, although in essence I will agree[/COLOR]

I realise that you don't believe in man made global warming.

You mention assumptions earlier, I would be interested to hear how you gleaned the above conclusion?

However, my position is different. Global warming definitely exists and our actions MIGHT be worsening it. We simply don't know either way, so I'm going to support those people who want to reduce CO2 emissions "just in case".

Agreed, but again with reservations. I'm not opposed to anyone who wants to reduce their carbon footprint, as long as they are doing it for the right reasons.

If they are wrong, the downside is some changes in our economy. If they are right and we ignore them the downside is pretty disasterous.

Agreed.

So .. fuel shouldn't be cheap.

I'm not suggesting it should be cheap, but affordable, until the Govt comes up with realistic alternatives that people are comfortable with, you won't get them out of their cars. What you will do is alienate them further.

If it were not for high fuel prices and selective taxation, manufacturers wouldn't focus on emission reduction and we wouldn't have the highly efficient engines we have today - especially the diesels.

I don't think it's quite that simple, manufactures have profits to make, they of course will react to market forces.Biggest market in the UK - company car drivers, hence the reductions in emissions. But hey ho we all benefit, so it's all good, especially for the shareholders

I firmly believe that this has to continue, into fuel cells or whatever other technology can be invented to allow us to live more sustainably.

Bang on NFS, I work in an industry focusing on sustainability, reduced heating bills etc. It's a good time for companies that tick all the right boxes, the shareholder's love it. I'm not cynical am I !

There should be a financial disincentive to people like myself who want to run inefficient cars. It should cost me more and fuel pricing helps to achieve this.

Agreed to a point, but again, people should not be penalised until there are real viable alternatives. The CC charge in London is a classic, ok one could argue that public transport has improved, but in reality it's badly organised, sporadic in terms of quality of service, and massively overcrowded.
End result - people back in cars, stuck in ever increasing jams and paying £8.00 for the privilege

I have sympathy for those people who are particularly reliant on their cars and for whom the current pricing is a financial burdon.

I think this point was the one that I originally got heated about. You gave the impression that in your opinion anyone who owned a car should be able to afford it, and if you could afford any fuel increase, so should they.
This is obviously not the case, and I'm glad that is not your stance

However, I also believe that they are not as numerous as you would imagine and that this issue is really being driven by the road hauliers association for commercial reasons.

That could well be the case, however it will be YOU & everyone else who pay's in the long run.All companies need to make a profit, hauliers are no different. Increases in fuel duty will only be passed onto the consumer. The hauliers have an element of power in making an impact on Govt thinking, although in saying that, today's protest seems to have had little to no effect.

I don't support Stephen Joseph or his campaign. I agree with him only on the point I stated - that decreasing the cost of fuel is a bad idea.

I still can not agree with the above,I'm not asking for cheap fuel, just a cost that is sustainable for people who really rely on their cars.
Whilst yes I can afford the increases, others can not.
I'm not suggesting I like increased taxation, it goes without saying I don't.

I don't think there is a debate to be had between us regarding public transport as I entirely agree that it needs improvement, that financially it doesn't work as an option for people who already run cars and that it doesn't necessarily operate when and where people need it.

OK fair enough, and again I'm glad we are in agreement on this point.

[Hotcoupe]

peterg1965 I feel very strongly about this subject but have kept my silence in this debate up until now. The word from the press, if you believe what you read, is that the Govt will make an 'extra' £4bn in fuel taxes this year as a result of the increase in the price of oil. Gordon Brown and Co would be very unwise to just keep quiet over all this. Yes, if fuel protests occur they will use the full might of the law (including anti terrorist legislation!) and quite rightly so, to curb any illegal activity, but they will not endear themselves to the public in doing so.

If I was in charge, I would use the tax windfall to make a very positive public gesture. It would take the form of giving every schoolchild (under the age of 18) a free bus pass (public transport pass) to use whenever and wherever they wanted. That would have the effect of appeasing the Green brigade, discouraging the 'school run' for those with alternatives, and doing something tangible and positive for most families up and down this great country of ours. It would hopefully encourage youngsters to think that public transport has the potential to be as good as the car. It may be a very 'socialist' thing to do, which goes against my natural inclinations, but it would, and could be, one of the best things that ever came out of the Houses of Parliament in decades.

Good stuff Peter,you won't get any arguements form me on the above opinion.

If you want to run, I will make a very effective campaign manager, OK my legs ain't great, but I can be very vocal

[peterg1965]

Now we are, apparently, part of a united Europe, the case for harmonising taxes must be compelling, particularly for fuel. The table (albeit slightly out of date) shows that the UK has the 2nd highest petrol prices in Europe and the most expensive Diesel in Europe. Let's face it, tax on fuel in the UK is not about saving the planet its about adding to the coffers at the Treasury. More money to waste on Quango's, 'initiatives', wars, MPs expenses and the like.

http://www.see-search.com/business/f...iceseurope.htm