[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Let me ask you this. Why would the sales person give a crap either way? Especially one that you are friends with? I mean it is what it is. Either the ceramic bezel Daytona sells more than the non-ceramic version or not. This is very simple. So when I ask my Rolex buddy who’s been doing it for a couple of decades, which version had more enthusiasm and more demand Sales he just answers the question. This isn’t rocket science. I understand you don’t like the answer with the M3 but it doesn’t change it from being true.

Originally Posted by RowanBuds

First, I'm not sure where your smart ass "smart ass" comment comes from, but there's no need for it, it's uncalled for, and I've got no idea who the hell you are. It's not cute, it's not endearing.

Second, I think you need to read my post again. It's not supporting ANY of your stance, yet you post as if it's in line with your potentially incorrect feelings on how the G8x are selling.

You can keep on believing what a dealership tells you because it supports your narratives, but the numbers shared (by a known insider…) don't.

So there's my (1) smart (2) ass comment. Smart as it's logical, ass as that's what I seem to be replying to.

Originally Posted by Patton250

Let me ask you this. Why would the sales person give a crap either way? Especially one that you are friends with? I mean it is what it is. Either the ceramic bezel Daytona sells more than the non-ceramic version or not. This is very simple. So when I ask my Rolex buddy who's been doing it for a couple of decades, which version had more enthusiasm and more demand Sales he just answers the question. This isn't rocket science. I understand you don't like the answer with the M3 but it doesn't change it from being true.

BMW has 4400 dealers worldwide in 150 countries, so basing sales and popularity on just one (or a few) local dealers statements does not represent a statistically significant group. Demographics etc of where your dealer is located also matters.

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...ch?language=en

Further. BMW M reported a 6% growth in sales and it's most successful year for 2020, despite covid-19 etc. G8x was put on the market first quarter of 2021, so we still don't know how it compares with total BMW M production for 2021.

But 2020 was actually BMW M's best year ever, despite covid-19… So we should perhaps be a bit careful with explaining lower production volumes on the pandemic alone.

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...ar?language=en

BTW, I am a big fan of the G8x

[Germanauto]

Sure, over the lifetime of a vehicle, EVs produce fewer CO2 emissions. But on a global scale, it will do absolutely nothing for climate change. Somebody convince me otherwise, I'm listening.

The overwhelming contributor toward climate change is population growth and economic growth in 3rd world nations. Unless we nuke most countries back into the dark ages create a Thanos to eradicate population growth or stop it in its tracks, climate change will chug along happily.

The REAL reason for this forced EV transition is so lobbyists and zealot politicians can fund their pockets and win elections. There are trillions of dollars to be made in the EV supply chain, from raw materials to production to charging. That's the actual reason EVs are being forced on us. The losers in all this? Car enthusiasts. Our hobby is now a political ploy for people who couldn't care less of a f*ck about cars.

If they truly cared about the climate, they'd invest heavily in mass public transportation. There's no logical reason why those of us in Southern California need to be confined in our cars for hours at a time in stop-and-go traffic. Creating a regional, European-style mass transit system would greatly reduce CO2 emissions and improve the physical/mental health of tens of millions of citizens. But no, let's place the burden of climate change on the consumer.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Boss330

BMW has 4400 dealers worldwide in 150 countries, so basing sales and popularity on just one (or a few) local dealers statements does not represent a statistically significant group. Demographics etc of where your dealer is located also matters.

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...ch?language=en

Further. BMW M reported a 6% growth in sales and it's most successful year for 2020, despite covid-19 etc. G8x was put on the market first quarter of 2021, so we still don't know how it compares with total BMW M production for 2021.

But 2020 was actually BMW M's best year ever, despite covid-19… So we should perhaps be a bit careful with explaining lower production volumes on the pandemic alone.

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...ar?language=en

BTW, I am a big fan of the G8x

It doesn’t matter man. All I said is that the G80 (not G82) was selling better than the F80 and the guys numbers prove it. I mean if you believe his numbers are accurate. I don’t believe he provided a source. Maybe he did but I don’t recall. All of this with a massive slow down in production due to parts shortage. If BMW had all the parts they needed the G80 would be double the sales of the F80 in the same time frame. This is not very difficult to look at. I’ve looked at this broadly not just locally. Enthusiasm for the new design is much higher than the handful of curmudgeon traditionalist who speak out heavily here and on other social media. That’s been my argument the whole time. However it seems to offend the curmudgeon‘s pretty good.

I like the G80 also. But I like the looks of the F80 too.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Patton250

It doesn’t matter man. All I said is that the G80 (not G82) was selling better than the F80 and the guys numbers prove it. I mean if you believe his numbers are accurate. I don’t believe he provided a source. Maybe he did but I don’t recall. All of this with a massive slow down in production due to parts shortage. If BMW had all the parts they needed the G80 would be double the sales of the F80 in the same time frame. This is not very difficult to look at. I’ve looked at this broadly not just locally. Enthusiasm for the new design is much higher than the handful of curmudgeon traditionalist who speak out heavily here and on other social media. That’s been my argument the whole time. However it seems to offend the curmudgeon‘s pretty good.

I like the G80 also. But I like the looks of the F80 too.

Do you have a source for a massive slow down in production for BMW?

As per my previous post BMW M increased sales in 2020 and in the first half of 2021 BMW reported a 88% increase in US sales.

BMW is also the least affected by the chip shortage.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...20-2021-08-03/

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Do you have a source for a massive slow down in production for BMW?

As per my previous post BMW M increased sales in 2020 and in the first half of 2021 BMW reported a 88% increase in US sales.

BMW is also the least affected by the chip shortage.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...20-2021-08-03/

Well you could just use this forum as a source. You are in the M3 section specifically for the G80. Why don’t you read all the threads about stop sales and massive postponements as well as many desperate people to get an allocation. And this is just a microcosm of The whole. Unless of course your question was rhetorical?

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Well you could just use this forum as a source. You are in the M3 section specifically for the G80. Why don’t you read all the threads about stop sales and massive postponements as well as many desperate people to get an allocation. And this is just a microcosm of The whole. Unless of course your question was rhetorical?

I mean a real source with facts, not anecdotal sources like «I read it on a forum» or «I talked with a dealer».

This forum represents at best 1% of M3/4 customers worldwide (probably more like 1‰) and to base opinions on internet posts is a fools errand…

There might very well have been G8x specific production delays, but in general BMW reports sales increase across the board, as documented in my previous posts. That a few people on this forum has had issues with allocations from their dealers, while other menbers have reported getting allocations almost immediately from other dealers, isn't proof of a «massive production decrease». It's anecdotal and with forums like this representing such a small population it's risky to extrapolate that into a universal truth on G8x production.

Again, you might very well be correct that there has been a massive delay in production, but you have not shown any evidence to support that claim yet.

BTW, this is a G80/G82/G83 forum for the M3 and M4. Not just the G80 M3…

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I mean a real source with facts, not anecdotal sources like «I read it on a forum» or «I talked with a dealer».

This forum represents at best 1% of M3/4 customers worldwide (probably more like 1‰) and to base opinions on internet posts is a fools errand…

There might very well have been G8x specific production delays, but in general BMW reports sales increase across the board, as documented in my previous posts. That a few people on this forum has had issues with allocations from their dealers, while other menbers have reported getting allocations almost immediately from other dealers, isn't proof of a «massive production decrease». It's anecdotal and with forums like this representing such a small population it's risky to extrapolate that into a universal truth on G8x production.

Again, you might very well be correct that there has been a massive delay in production, but you have not shown any evidence to support that claim yet.

BTW, this is a G80/G82/G83 forum for the M3 and M4. Not just the G80 M3…

I’ll tell you what I’ll do my friend. I’ll go ahead and place $1000 bet with you where the proceeds will go to any non-liberal charity of your choice. Here are the terms. I feel confident enough to only go by what my dealer has told me, other dealers in my area and what I’ve heard on this forum. I’m telling you there has not only been delays for the G80 but massive delays. When we find out officially, by officially I mean something that satisfies you then we can come back to this thread and rectify our bet. So if it turns out there were little to no delays and they never slowed down production on the G80, holding up allocations and causing a massive waiting lists then you win. But if it turns out I am right and there were massive delays then I win. When we rectify the bet we can name our charity of choice publicly here. The loser will publicly prove they donated the money. Deal?

If you want we can also have another bet as to whether the G80 will significantly outsell the F80 in its first year of production but only if you allow unfulfilled or waiting on orders to count. From everything I see if BMW built every G80 thats been desired it would’ve already out sold the F80 by now even if you counted the F80s entire first year of production. i’m sure we won’t officially know until March/ April 2022 but I’m willing to wait. I very well might turn out to be wrong but I doubt it.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by swagon

They do so because the local government incentives and corporate decisions have basically forced them.

Tesla registrations in Hong Kong: Jan 2015 - Dec 2017:


After 2017:


Explanation about the sharp rise and flatliner drop around April 1, 2017: see for example

• here (2017: "Tesla sales drop in Hong Kong after tax breaks removed");
• here (2017: "Tax change devastates Tesla's sales in Hong Kong");
• here (2018: "Hong Kong’s electric vehicle subsidy was much too large, and it is right to scrap it");
• here (2019: "Tesla’s sales never recovered after Hong Kong cut a tax break");
• here (2021: "Electric Vehicle Incentives" (Hong Kong)).

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by iwant335i

Based on M Vision?

Don't know, but the M was retired a while back before it even started by the board I thought?

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I’ll tell you what I’ll do my friend. I’ll go ahead and place $1000 bet with you where the proceeds will go to any non-liberal charity of your choice. Here are the terms. I feel confident enough to only go by what my dealer has told me, other dealers in my area and what I’ve heard on this forum. I’m telling you there has not only been delays for the G80 but massive delays. When we find out officially, by officially I mean something that satisfies you then we can come back to this thread and rectify our bet. So if it turns out there were little to no delays and they never slowed down production on the G80, holding up allocations and causing a massive waiting lists then you win. But if it turns out I am right and there were massive delays then I win. When we rectify the bet we can name our charity of choice publicly here. The loser will publicly prove they donated the money. Deal?

If you want we can also have another bet as to whether the G80 will significantly outsell the F80 in its first year of production but only if you allow unfulfilled or waiting on orders to count. From everything I see if BMW built every G80 thats been desired it would’ve already out sold the F80 by now even if you counted the F80s entire first year of production. i’m sure we won’t officially know until March/ April 2022 but I’m willing to wait. I very well might turn out to be wrong but I doubt it.

Please re read my posts as it seems you aren't getting my point.
I have stated several times that there very well might have been (are) production delays. But we have not seen any hard evidence to prove if that is true or the magnitude of any such delays. Until we do, your opinion that the G80 would outsell the F80 in a magnitude of double the numbers is just speculation.

Again, I have not said you are proven wrong but that other official facts (from BMW) doesn't support your claim of massive delays in general. This doesn't mean that G8x production isn't an anamoly within BMW, which it very well can be, and have been hit by massive production delays other models haven't seem to be hit by.
But until we get confirmation from BMW (or other trustworthy source) we simply don't know the magnitude of any such delays.

Also, I am on the same page as you with regards to hoping the G8x does well in the market and outperforms the F8x in sales as well. If you look back at my posts on this forum around pre launch and launch of the G8x you will see that I have always been a supporter of the new car. People on here was exactly the same when the F8x came. The doomsayers was having a blast with BMW having lost it's way and that the F8x would basically be crap compared to it's predecessors.

Btw, the conditions of your proposed bet are a bit open for interpretation and speculation…

What constitutes a «massive delay»?
What constitutes a «massive waiting list»?
What constitutes a «non-liberal charity»?

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Btw, the conditions of your proposed bet are a bit open for interpretation and speculation…

What constitutes a "massive delay"?
What constitutes a "massive waiting list"?
What constitutes a "non-liberal charity"?

I bet there will be an argument to be had about the charity

I'll nominate one, a driver education charity so we can get at least one idiot driver trained to be less idiotic on the road; liberal or otherwise

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Which was the old CSL before it was a GTS.

Not really, the CSL had rear seats...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

I don't have sales but I do have production, current to mid-October. This is US+Canada.

G80:
Comp RWD - 1840 (12 months)
Comp AWD - 620 (4 months)
Base - 970 (12 months)

G82:
Comp RWD - 1700 (12)
Comp AWD - 580 (4)
Base - 750 (12)

G83: 280 (4)

Interesting. First time we see the 4-door out-produce the 2-door...

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Please re read my posts as it seems you aren't getting my point.
I have stated several times that there very well might have been (are) production delays. But we have not seen any hard evidence to prove if that is true or the magnitude of any such delays. Until we do, your opinion that the G80 would outsell the F80 in a magnitude of double the numbers is just speculation.

Again, I have not said you are proven wrong but that other official facts (from BMW) doesn't support your claim of massive delays in general. This doesn't mean that G8x production isn't an anamoly within BMW, which it very well can be, and have been hit by massive production delays other models haven't seem to be hit by.
But until we get confirmation from BMW (or other trustworthy source) we simply don't know the magnitude of any such delays.

Also, I am on the same page as you with regards to hoping the G8x does well in the market and outperforms the F8x in sales as well. If you look back at my posts on this forum around pre launch and launch of the G8x you will see that I have always been a supporter of the new car. People on here was exactly the same when the F8x came. The doomsayers was having a blast with BMW having lost it's way and that the F8x would basically be crap compared to it's predecessors.

Btw, the conditions of your proposed bet are a bit open for interpretation and speculation…

What constitutes a «massive delay»?
What constitutes a «massive waiting list»?
What constitutes a «non-liberal charity»?

Brother I agree with everything you said. I’ve said it was speculation all along but when you put all the information together pretty much shows there have been very bad delays due to parts. It makes sense because other auto manufacturers are going through the same thing. Go talk to any dealership in your area. They will tell you that once they would have 400 cars on the lot now they have 40. I guess you could call that speculation but the people working at the dealership would call it a fact. My friends at the BMW dealership told me they’re hardly getting any new cars in due to delays especially M cars. They also told me they have way more interest in the new M3 than the last version and have a long waiting list for them. Once again you’re right this is all hearsay and I suppose it could be totally different for Florida than the rest of the world. But when Florida ran out of toilet paper so did the rest of the country so there you go. Anyway I appreciate your response I hope you have an awesome Sunday.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

I bet there will be an argument to be had about the charity

I'll nominate one, a driver education charity so we can get at least one idiot driver trained to be less idiotic on the road; liberal or otherwise

driving has gotten so bad in Florida. We’ve been invaded as people from freedom hating states are all having a mass exodus to our freedom loving state of Florida. I’ve never seen so many traffic accidents in my life. I 95 and I 75 always at a standstill. In fact I caught an accident on my rear dash cam while we were at a standstill for an accident in front of us. check this out. This is on I 75 south on a Friday afternoon I believe. I was just coming to it where traffic was at a standstill because of an accident a couple miles ahead. That’s why I was going so slow. The dude in the truck must have in looking at his phone or something and then looked up and saw traffic in front of him stopped and it was too late. The result is what you see.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by RowanBuds

disagreed. no spin, you made the commentary on getting a smart ass reply. I don't know what the hell you meant because you're coming to a place that has statistics with anecdotes; they're not entitled the same validity.

Plus, facts / feelings; your feelings and what you're hearing from 1 person are not indicative of the broader market here, and ynguldyn has come with receipts.

Thanks for not further engaging, the hole is getting too deep.

I think his point is that that the 4-door G80 M3 is produced in significantly higher volumes than the 4-door F80 M3, despite the fact that overall G8X production volumes are lower than the F8X volumes for the same period. That tells us that either demand for the 4-door is higher for the G8X gen or that BMW shifted their strategy allocating more production slots to the 4-door.

In my personal case, I find the G82 M4 totally missed the mark esthetically, much more so than the G80 M3. Maybe others are like me, which could explain why for the first time the 4-door is produced in higher volumes than the 2-door.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

In my personal case, I find the G82 M4 totally missed the mark esthetically, much more so than the G80 M3. Maybe others are like me, which could explain why for the first time the 4-door is produced in higher volumes than the 2-door.

Almost certainly unrelated as explanation, but some customers like the practicality bonus:

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I think his point is that that the 4-door G80 M3 is produced in significantly higher volumes than the 4-door F80 M3, despite the fact that overall G8X production volumes are lower than the F8X volumes for the same period. That tells us that either demand for the 4-door is higher for the G8X gen or that BMW shifted their strategy allocating more production slots to the 4-door.

In my personal case, I find the G82 M4 totally missed the mark esthetically, much more so than the G80 M3. Maybe others are like me, which could explain why for the first time the 4-door is produced in higher volumes than the 2-door.

That’s exactly what I was saying. All that with a massive part shortage and a massive slow down in production. Have there been no COVID-19 and the shutting down of factories all over the world there would have been a lot more G80’s produced by now.

I’m not really crazy about two door cars in general. I never liked the mustang, Corvette, Camaro or even the charger. First off they are the ones that door ding everyone with their long ass doors. Second it’s just not as practical as four doors. I do like the look of the new G82 but I wish they had flared the rear fenders like they did for the G80.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by Patton250

driving has gotten so bad in Florida. We've been invaded as people from freedom hating states are all having a mass exodus to our freedom loving state of Florida. I've never seen so many traffic accidents in my life. I 95 and I 75 always at a standstill. In fact I caught an accident on my rear dash cam while we were at a standstill for an accident in front of us. check this out. This is on I 75 south on a Friday afternoon I believe. I was just coming to it where traffic was at a standstill because of an accident a couple miles ahead. That's why I was going so slow. The dude in the truck must have in looking at his phone or something and then looked up and saw traffic in front of him stopped and it was too late. The result is what you see.

There you go my friend

Now we know what charity

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Patton250

That’s exactly what I was saying. All that with a massive part shortage and a massive slow down in production. Have there been no COVID-19 and the shutting down of factories all over the world there would have been a lot more G80’s produced by now.

I’m not really crazy about two door cars in general. I never liked the mustang, Corvette, Camaro or even the charger. First off they are the ones that door ding everyone with their long ass doors. Second it’s just not as practical as four doors. I do like the look of the new G82 but I wish they had flared the rear fenders like they did for the G80.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I think his point is that that the 4-door G80 M3 is produced in significantly higher volumes than the 4-door F80 M3, despite the fact that overall G8X production volumes are lower than the F8X volumes for the same period. That tells us that either demand for the 4-door is higher for the G8X gen or that BMW shifted their strategy allocating more production slots to the 4-door.

In my personal case, I find the G82 M4 totally missed the mark esthetically, much more so than the G80 M3. Maybe others are like me, which could explain why for the first time the 4-door is produced in higher volumes than the 2-door.

Originally Posted by Patton250

That's exactly what I was saying. All that with a massive part shortage and a massive slow down in production. Have there been no COVID-19 and the shutting down of factories all over the world there would have been a lot more G80's produced by now.

I'm not really crazy about two door cars in general. I never liked the mustang, Corvette, Camaro or even the charger. First off they are the ones that door ding everyone with their long ass doors. Second it's just not as practical as four doors. I do like the look of the new G82 but I wish they had flared the rear fenders like they did for the G80.

I did a Google search in German and I have found two different reports on manufacturing delays for BMW and one specificially for the G8x

First this report from april that says the Regensburg factory had to close for two days due to the chip shortage. Same article also says that other German manufacturers have been hit far worse than BMW with having had to shut down for several weeks.
The Regensburg factory makes 1000 cars per day.

https://www.bimmertoday.de/2021/04/3...erbrechen/amp/

Then this second report from august that says all but the Munich factory has decreased production or going just one shift leading to 10000 vehicles not being made the next following days.

https://www.bimmertoday.de/2021/07/2...allen-bei-bmw/

Neither of these point to a «massive delay» in production for the G8x, but certainly a delay having found place.

Then this third, and most recent report from two weeks ago (october 19th), which is almost like a déjà vu to people familiar with previous BMW S-engines like the S54, S65, S85 … A bearing issue…
This time a main bearing issue discovered during quality checks with a suppler.
This has lead to a halt in production until the case is solved. So far only 25 vehicles have been affected and the problem was discovered before the cars where delivered to customers.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/...er-mangelhaft/

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Almost certainly unrelated as explanation, but some customers like the practicality bonus:
Attachment 2737355

But why would it be the case only for the G8X and not for the previous generations that also offered 4-doors?

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I did a Google search in German and I have found two different reports on manufacturing delays for BMW and one specificially for the G8x

First this report from april that says the Regensburg factory had to close for two days due to the chip shortage. Same article also says that other German manufacturers have been hit far worse than BMW with having had to shut down for several weeks.
The Regensburg factory makes 1000 cars per day.

https://www.bimmertoday.de/2021/04/3...erbrechen/amp/

Then this second report from august that says all but the Munich factory has decreased production or going just one shift leading to 10000 vehicles not being made the next following days.

https://www.bimmertoday.de/2021/07/2...allen-bei-bmw/

Neither of these point to a «massive delay» in production for the G8x, but certainly a delay having found place.

Then this third, and most recent report from two weeks ago (october 19th), which is almost like a déjà vu to people familiar with previous BMW S-engines like the S54, S65, S85 … A bearing issue…
This time a main bearing issue discovered during quality checks with a suppler.
This has lead to a halt in production until the case is solved. So far only 25 vehicles have been affected and the problem was discovered before the cars where delivered to customers.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/...er-mangelhaft/

I don’t think they’re going to report everything but check out all the build week threads right here and find out how many times people have been pushed back. I ordered mine and it should’ve been done two months ago. So mine got delayed two months. 60 days. I’m not even close to the only one here that’s happened to. Yes this forum is only a microcosm of all sales but it’s still a pretty good indicator of what’s happening. Bing series for a second you are aware of the worldwide chip shortage right? I’m asking you this in a serious way. You are aware that BMW is not the only manufacturer with massive production delays? You are aware that every auto manufacturer is going through the exact same thing right? I mean this series of questions with respect.

I’ll give you some more analogies and personal antidotes that seem to be pushed aside not respected by some on this thread. Several friends of mine that have a used truck has been approached by the dealer they bought it from an offered more money to buy it back than what they paid for it originally. that’s how desperate dealerships are. When I bought my Toyota Camry hybrid 90 days ago I had to call every Toyota dealership in the state of Florida to find it. I finally found one 200 miles from my house. I wanted to buy it from my local Toyota dealership where I bought my Tacoma but they didn’t have any. They literally had 10% of the normal amount of cars on their lot then they usually have. It’s bad and it’s by far not just BMW.