[Former_Boosted_IS]

Eric, if you look at your original graph of the e40 versus straight fuel, you still have the timing drops but they are smaller. It still appears the car is trying to ride the knock sensor to find an adapted timing curve.

[Eric@AMS]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

Eric, if you look at your original graph of the e40 versus straight fuel, you still have the timing drops but they are smaller. It still appears the car is trying to ride the knock sensor to find an adapted timing curve.

Although that's entirely possible, I think the scale on the y-axis makes some of the changes look more abrupt than they are? In that log the timing never dropped in excess of 1° from sample point to point. I guess the ideal scenario would be to use a BT scan tool to register knock retard values in the future. That way nothing is left to interpretation.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by Eric@AMS

Although that's entirely possible, I think the scale on the y-axis makes some of the changes look more abrupt than they are? In that log the timing never dropped in excess of 1° from sample point to point. I guess the ideal scenario would be to use a BT scan tool to register knock retard values in the future. That way nothing is left to interpretation.

Your input on the forum has been fantastic and I am glad you are developing this type of relationship. My testing has shown the knock retards (KR) happen in the immediate timeframe after changing a map or reseting adaptation values. The car interestingly enough will not record a knock status on these events you showed on your graph. Once the adaption occurs, these events all but stop.

[GeorgeSmooth]

Eric a quick question. Can these changes be made on the fly like with a standalone or will the altered file have to be saved each time. It would be excellent if changes could be made whilst loading the car at a fixed rpm on the dyno.

[Joshboody]

Cool, thanks for the comprehensive response. Couple additional questions.

1. In the timing chart 0 represents stock timing map. With a custom map are the values set a 0 per map? If not it maybe a little confusing to tune, unless a changed value turns a different color. I would image any drastic change in boost over stock would change timing considerably throughout the matrix.
2. These data logs are recorded by the ECU and diagnosed via the obd port OR by separate tooling? Basically can you pull up throttle position, rpm, timing, etc for a certain time period after driving under load… how about while driving? Sorry, this is probably std knowledge for BMWers
3. Does the CPE disable speed limit?

[Eric@AMS]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

Your input on the forum has been fantastic and I am glad you are developing this type of relationship. My testing has shown the knock retards (KR) happen in the immediate timeframe after changing a map or reseting adaptation values. The car interestingly enough will not record a knock status on these events you showed on your graph. Once the adaption occurs, these events all but stop.

It's really my pleasure! You're asking great questions and I appreciate you sharing your experiences with your car. I'd love to see this sort of back and forth exploration as more people get there hands on tuners and data loggers.

If you don't mind, let me regurgitate what you just said to see if I understand what you correctly. Are you saying that after adaptation has taken place (which I'm surprised to see that there is a finite window in which this occurs?) even if there abrupt changes in ignition timing as shown above, this wouldn't necessarily be met with a knock retard value? In other words the knock retard values more or less stop being reported after a period of time? Did I understand that right?

Originally Posted by GeorgeSmooth

Eric a quick question. Can these changes be made on the fly like with a standalone or will the altered file have to be saved each time. It would be excellent if changes could be made whilst loading the car at a fixed rpm on the dyno.

Actually you can do that. One neat feature cp-e put in there is that you can make changes on the fly. Here's an example...

Say you're on a load bearing dyno, and you're trying to find MBT, or even the ideal fuel mixture at a certain load and RPM. The Standback will indicate which cell is currently being read in the table, and you can use the greater-than and less-than keys on the keyboard to immediately increase or decrease values in that cell, in real time. So yes, you may absolutely make immediate changes.

Originally Posted by Joshboody

Cool, thanks for the comprehensive response. Couple additional questions.

1. In the timing chart 0 represents stock timing map. With a custom map are the values set a 0 per map? If not it maybe a little confusing to tune, unless a changed value turns a different color. I would image any drastic change in boost over stock would change timing considerably throughout the matrix.
2. These data logs are recorded by the ECU and diagnosed via the obd port OR by separate tooling? Basically can you pull up throttle position, rpm, timing, etc for a certain time period after driving under load… how about while driving? Sorry, this is probably std knowledge for BMWers
3. Does the CPE disable speed limit?

My pleasure.

1. Correct, a zero in a timing cell means we're not making any changes relative to the factory timing. Remember, our changes are relative to the factory mapping, so if the factory mapping changes we're simple along for the ride. So say, if the ECU pulls 5 degrees of timing across the board, the Standback won't react to that change and will still apply the scalars in the timing table. So you're absolutely right in that any large changes to boost or fueling will likely have to be met with some timing changes. Custom maps will have varying ignition timing curves depending on the condition which the vehicle will be operated under, and it likely won't just be all zeros. The cells do in fact change color depending on the magnitude of the cell.

2. All the logs that have been posted are csv files recorded by the Standback that have been imported into Excel. cp-e offers another datalog viewing program they call the BlackBox, but it doesn't offer the adjustability I like in Excel. But if you just want to quickly view a log, you can open the BlackBox software and chart anything from the logs pretty easily. A screenshot of the viewing software is below:



Does that answer your question?

3. Ah, unfortunately not. In order to remove speed limiters and rpm limits you'll likely need a flashing tool of some sort.

[GeorgeSmooth]

Originally Posted by Eric@AMS

Actually you can do that. One neat feature cp-e put in there is that you can make changes on the fly. Here's an example...

Say you're on a load bearing dyno, and you're trying to find MBT, or even the ideal fuel mixture at a certain load and RPM. The Standback will indicate which cell is currently being read in the table, and you can use the greater-than and less-than keys on the keyboard to immediately increase or decrease values in that cell, in real time. So yes, you may absolutely make immediate changes.

This is great news, on older cars we use to use a Emulator on the stock DME and alter OEM software in that manner and in my opinion is close to the most accurate and safest way of tuning once you learn the dyno to road condition reaction of the car.
In terms of fueling do you know if the CP-E works with fuel pressure alteration or if it intercepts injector pulses?
Sorry for all the questions but it would be good to have them answered for people that will have these queries in future.

[Eric@AMS]

Originally Posted by GeorgeSmooth

This is great news, on older cars we use to use a Emulator on the stock DME and alter OEM software in that manner and in my opinion is close to the most accurate and safest way of tuning once you learn the dyno to road condition reaction of the car.
In terms of fueling do you know if the CP-E works with fuel pressure alteration or if it intercepts injector pulses?
Sorry for all the questions but it would be good to have them answered for people that will have these queries in future.

No problem, as I said before you guys are asking great questions so please do continue if you have more for us.

I believe the Standback steers the wideband in order to change fueling. So for example if you try to lean out the fuel mixture, you'd essentially be lying to the computer and telling it that the mixture is richer than it really is so it pulls some fuel back.

[midlife]

Originally Posted by GeorgeSmooth

Join the club, we are sitting at around 1650m above sea level and everything changes. My car has a flash that is tuned to run on 91. My intention is to use the CPE's first map as the stock flash map with no changes and the second map I will tune the car for higher octane.

my point is that how will these flashes adapt to higher elevations and /or low octane ?

note i am at 8000 feet with loooowest octane.
i can run custom maps on my JB3 and i spray methanol (you should too if at high altitude).

[midlife]

Originally Posted by Eric@AMS

.......Here's a datalog that was taken a while back that shows some knock. I have boost, ignition timing, and the MAP voltage plotted. The abrupt drop in timing (the red line) is a knock event (the computer is pulling timing to prevent further knock).

If a customer sent me this log and said, "I'm using canned map "X" and it was running great, but I recently moved to Colorado and I'm getting some knock now, can you fix this for me?" I'd open up his tune file and find the area where the knock occurred.

In the chart above the knock occurs at 4255rpm and 3.45-MAP volts. If the car knocked consistently in that region I'd just remove some timing there.

....... The other alternative would be to drop boost down, which is actually even easier. Boost has a great affect on knock, so if your environment is simply very hot or you live in high altitude, it may be better to drop boost down slightly as opposed to pulling timing.

that is great... i am not criticizing but want to learn more:

1/ in your colorrado example - the flash does not auto adjust for altitude
2/ the customer sends you the file and you make adjustments ... great.

but this process can be time consuming for you:
are you guys gonna be setup for this kind of customer support ?
i have no problem paying a fair price for any adjustments needed due to unique situations of altitude etc...
but will this service be free or maybe a one time flat fee ??

lastly, are you gonna tune your turbo upgrade with this unit??
rough eta please


thanks

[midlife]

Originally Posted by got psi

You cant even do any of these things yourself?

Or did i miss something?

if you are talking to me, all i gotta say is:

imho the secret to sucess is knowing what you are truely good at, and then hiring others to do what you are not best at - or hire others to do what you choose not to do.

i trust you have no problem with that

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by midlife

if you are talking to me, all i gotta say is:

imho the secret to sucess is knowing what you are truely good at, and then hiring others to do what you are not best at - or hire others to do what you choose not to do.

i trust you have no problem with that

so so true ....

[GeorgeSmooth]

Originally Posted by midlife

my point is that how will these flashes adapt to higher elevations and /or low octane ?

note i am at 8000 feet with loooowest octane.
i can run custom maps on my JB3 and i spray methanol (you should too if at high altitude).

The flash works better than a piggy back if that is what you are asking. The car has altitude compensation so with a flash tune the car will follow the boost target. The only thing that changes at altitude is you have slightly more lag.
This can also be witnessed with the people that have fitted larger intercoolers on stock or modified DME software. Even though there is a pressure drop across the cooler the DME spools the turbo further and compensates for the loss. This can be seen when logging: the boost pressure stays the same but there is a change in wastegate pulse duration.
The only thing to keep in mind with altitude tuning is that for a set boost we are spinning the turbos faster than the coastal people. i.e 14.5 psi might equal 120,000rpm's on the turbo vs 135,000rpm's at high altitude. So the breaking point for altitude tuners might be closer than what one might think. Where I live there are four people that can tune the stock DME as easily as your JB. Flash tunes have been making the same power as the Procedes and Jb for over a year and the generic software that is being sold in the States is a laughable matter. I think with the introduction of ESS and with the promising GIAC people will realize what the stock DME is capable of.

All the piggy backs like CP-E does is that it allows us mere mortals that don't have the tools or the knowledge to self tune our cars to our liking. I am not really keen or can afford to pay a programmer $1000 a shot for changes that I want to make. Plus as you mentioned it give you the opportunity to tune for the much needed methanol injection for owners that only have access to 91.

[jpsimon]

flashes have made the same power as piggyback for a year? Is that so? Care to post supporting data? Perhaps 400+whp dynos and sub 12 second timeslips from flash based n54's?

ESS hasn't been impressive at all, we haven't seen many customer dynos or track times. The fastest cars on the track have all been piggyback equipped... If you have other data to support your claims I'd love to see it.

The most impressive flash yet is GIAC, but that is brand new and the stage 2, 2+ still need to come out. I trust GIAC over any of the other flashes by far. But up until this point piggybacks have been king.

This is not the thread for that discussion though, so I digress

[GeorgeSmooth]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

flashes have made the same power as piggyback for a year? Is that so? Care to post supporting data? Perhaps 400+whp dynos and sub 12 second timeslips from flash based n54's?

ESS hasn't been impressive at all, we haven't seen many customer dynos or track times. The fastest cars on the track have all been piggyback equipped... If you have other data to support your claims I'd love to see it.

The most impressive flash yet is GIAC, but that is brand new and the stage 2, 2+ still need to come out. I trust GIAC over any of the other flashes by far. But up until this point piggybacks have been king.

This is not the thread for that discussion though, so I digress

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...ozdyno3002.jpg
This is before and after downpipes. The flash tunes that exist are not the only one you read about on this forum.

[Nutballa]

haha, wow this is great!

[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by GeorgeSmooth

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...ozdyno3002.jpg
This is before and after downpipes. The flash tunes that exist are not the only one you read about on this forum.

404hp / 436tq (up from 366 / 404 ) - engine power not power at the wheels. So roughly 340whp (up from 311whp) give or take? But again.. This isn't the time or the place. Sorry eric

[flem]

Originally Posted by Eric@AMS

The end user will have complete control if he likes

Originally Posted by got psi

What I meant was if the "user" will be able to make all these adjustments him/herself.

[GeorgeSmooth]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

404hp / 436tq (up from 366 / 404 ) - engine power not power at the wheels. So roughly 340whp (up from 311whp) give or take? But again.. This isn't the time or the place. Sorry eric

You right not the right place. I will start a new thread and invite the tuners to come and contribute. One of them is M&M who is a board member and uses the Dimsport Flash tuning platform. He is a ex FRC user who has a lot of insite and access to many dyno graphs.

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by Eric@AMS

3. Ah, unfortunately not. In order to remove speed limiters and rpm limits you'll likely need a flashing tool of some sort.

That is regrettable. Rules out this tune for me, then - what good is all that power if I'm still limited to the 250 km/h of the stock car?

Alpina_B3_Lux

[Zeph]

Seriously, it doesn't remove the top speed? I won't buy a tune (beyond a simple SSTT/JB+ for temporary use) that doesn't. So what, only PROcede and GIAC?

[flem]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

That is regrettable. Rules out this tune for me, then - what good is all that power if I'm still limited to the 250 km/h of the stock car?

Alpina_B3_Lux

Well then I missed that little bit of info...