[Rob@RBTurbo]

FYI:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel_(disambiguation)

Slander and libel are false or malicious claims that may harm someone's reputation. If false, malicious statements are published in mainstream media (i.e. on the internet, in a magazine, etc.) then it is classified as "libel". If the defamatory statements are only spoken, then it is called "slander".

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

It would appear to be perfectly logical that both ASR and RD are buying their Garret CHRAs from Garret or one of their distributors. And who knows if the CHRAs even share the same spec? And beyond that, there are only so many ways you can can machine the factory housings to fit them. So it wouldn't be fair to accuse one of copying another.

FWIW, I've been talking with Abid for over a year about these upgraded turbos. I'm quite certain that all the R&D and testing was done by him and not "ripped" off of someone else. I just don't understand where all the rumors come from and who has to gain what by spreading them.

Shiv

I'm totally with you on that and would welcome it if people here could stop such useless and counterproductive discussions.

Can you share a bit more light on the technical details of the upgrade? It would be great to know a bit more about them in order to be able to compare them to the Turbo Dynamics upgrade of the stock turbos that is discussed in another thread here (much more fact-oriented, by the way). I'm really interested in that because I think that ASR put a whole lot of research into that upgrade and that the decision to go with completely different (but superior) Garrett turbos makes the turbo upgrade more difficult technically, but probably more rewarding in terms of reliability and power. Care to elaborate? If possible.

Alpina_B3_Lux

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

I'm totally with you on that and would welcome it if people here could stop such useless and counterproductive discussions.

Can you share a bit more light on the technical details of the upgrade? It would be great to know a bit more about them in order to be able to compare them to the Turbo Dynamics upgrade of the stock turbos that is discussed in another thread here (much more fact-oriented, by the way). I'm really interested in that because I think that ASR put a whole lot of research into that upgrade and that the decision to go with completely different (but superior) Garrett turbos makes the turbo upgrade more difficult technically, but probably more rewarding in terms of reliability and power. Care to elaborate? If possible.

Alpina_B3_Lux

To get technical details on the turbos themselves, it would be best to ask Abid at ASR. I just tuned what was put in front of me

And it was the first turbo upgrade that I tuned that actually made power. I took a stab (actually 2 stabs) at tuning another turbo upgrade last year (for another company) that didn't offer any measurable improvements over stock.

Shiv

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

I'm totally with you on that and would welcome it if people here could stop such useless and counterproductive discussions.

Can you share a bit more light on the technical details of the upgrade? It would be great to know a bit more about them in order to be able to compare them to the Turbo Dynamics upgrade of the stock turbos that is discussed in another thread here (much more fact-oriented, by the way). I'm really interested in that because I think that ASR put a whole lot of research into that upgrade and that the decision to go with completely different (but superior) Garrett turbos makes the turbo upgrade more difficult technically, but probably more rewarding in terms of reliability and power. Care to elaborate? If possible.

Alpina_B3_Lux

The problem with this discussion is that these are two different solutions to creating a more efficient and effective turbo, neither of which have yet been proven in the field. Theoretically the Garrett may well be a superior component, but the application of that into a modified housing might still be a limiting factor. I'm by no means a turbo expert so am only saying as I see it. The proof as ever will be in the running, tuning, and driving. The reliability factor will be determined many months down the line, and we shall really be able to tell by next summer once my car has done five or six visits to the 'Ring.

Until we have this medium-term data, this whole business of criticising someone else's product is utterly pathetic and totally pointless...

[Bluechipper]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

It would appear to be perfectly logical that both ASR and RD are buying their Garret CHRAs from Garret or one of their distributors. And who knows if the CHRAs even share the same spec? And beyond that, there are only so many ways you can can machine the factory housings to fit them. So it wouldn't be fair to accuse one of copying another.

FWIW, I've been talking with Abid for over a year about these upgraded turbos. I'm quite certain that all the R&D and testing was done by him and not "ripped" off of someone else. I just don't understand where all the rumors come from and who has to gain what by spreading them.Shiv

It is easy to understand after you look at both of them. uh-oh

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...&highlight=asr

http://www.racdyn.com/IC_01.cfm?ic=1309054920

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Bluechipper

It is easy to understand after you look at both of them. uh-oh

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...&highlight=asr

http://www.racdyn.com/IC_01.cfm?ic=1309054920

See, this is what I don't understand. Why do you expect them to look significantly different? If they both use a Garret CHRA (especially if its from the same family), the blade pattern on both the compressor and turbine will (and should) look the same to the naked eye.

If I had to go out and make an upgraded turbo for the N54 from scratch, i'll bet I would end up with something THAT LOOKS just like these two options. Even if I didn't even see them before or during my R&D period. It's like asking three people to go out and design a wheel and then criticize them for all ending up with something that is perfectly round.

Shiv

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

See, this is what I don't understand. Why do you expect them to look significantly different? If they both use a Garret CHRA (especially if its from the same family), the blade pattern on both the compressor and turbine will (and should) look the same to the naked eye.

If I had to go out and make an upgraded turbo for the N54 from scratch, i'll bet I would end up with something just like these two options. Even if I didn't even see them before or during my R&D period. It's like asking three people to go out and design a wheel and then criticize them for all ending up with something that is perfectly round.

Shiv

Precisely, and if I ask Turbo Dynamics who are doing my turbos at the moment to use a Garrett CHRA, it would probably look pretty damn similar to ASR and RD and others. After all, there's only so many places (one) when the CHRA can go, correct? And only so many sizes of holes (one) that need to be machined to make it fit, am I right?

Until the critics have each and every turbo in hand, in front of them, up close and able to be examined, this entire debate about rebadging or not-rebadging is without any foundation.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

Precisely, and if I ask Turbo Dynamics who are doing my turbos at the moment to use a Garrett CHRA, it would probably look pretty damn similar to ASR and RD and others. After all, there's only so many places (one) when the CHRA can go, correct? And only so many sizes of holes (one) that need to be machined to make it fit, am I right?

Until the critics have each and every turbo in hand, in front of them, up close and able to be examined, this entire debate about rebadging or not-rebadging is without any foundation.

+1
The problem with internet forums is that there are too many uninformed people who want to look smart and start debates. The problem is compounded when they themselves aren't knowledgeable enough to know when they are wrong. And then factor in the gang mentality of a few vehement +1s and you have the makings of a completely unnecessary argument devoid of substance or merit.

Shiv

[1Sleeper]

Wow, I have one of those cars (not 135) and thats God damn fast. Well done!

[pdjafari]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Have you ever thought that they weren't sold to members of a forum. But to actual real motorsports teams that have better things to do than argue on the internet. I dunno... like win races?

Shiv

Since you tuned their car, have you tuned any of their customer cars? I read somewhere that the price of their kit includes a procede. Is the procede used in this application similar to one on a standard N54?? Just wondering how their other customers tuned the kits that were sold

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by pdjafari

Since you tuned their car, have you tuned any of their customer cars? I read somewhere that the price of their kit includes a procede. Is the procede used in this application similar to one on a standard N54?? Just wondering how their other customers tuned the kits that were sold

I would expect Shiv tuned ASR's car to work just like a customers car would...no custom tuning needed.

Different levels of supporting mods would need to be addressed though.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Sniz

I would expect Shiv tuned ASR's car to work just like a customers car would...no custom tuning needed.

Different levels of supporting mods would need to be addressed though.

+1
That's why I went out there. I don't understand the logic that is being applied here.

shiv

[datbimmerdoe]

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

To get technical details on the turbos themselves, it would be best to ask Abid at ASR. I just tuned what was put in front of me

Sure, I understand that. Problem is, ASR don't seem to post here anymore (which I can understand to some extent, considering the intellectual level of some debates), and it's not too easy for me to call Abid directly, different time zone and all - plus I wouldn't get any photos like Tone here got from Turbo Dynamics.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

And it was the first turbo upgrade that I tuned that actually made power. I took a stab (actually 2 stabs) at tuning another turbo upgrade last year (for another company) that didn't offer any measurable improvements over stock.

Shiv

That's good to hear! Have you any idea whether they have already sold a kit to someone in Europe? Because what we would really need here, like Tony said, is first-hand experience in the real world...preferably next to where I live!

Alpina_B3_Lux

[E92Fan]

Does anybody know if the ASR turbos are BOTH water cooled and oil cooled, or are they only oil cooled?

[TurboSid]

who gives some of these idiots enough money to buy bmw's... its like 1+1= 11 with these guys.

I stated this when AR design accused asr of ripping of rd sport... we all know the chra's come from same manufacturer its common sense that they will look similar.

[TurboSid]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

Does anybody know if the ASR turbos are BOTH water cooled and oil cooled, or are they only oil cooled?

why not just send a PM to ASR asking them?

[marconi118]

are they using something like this?

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by TurboSid

why not just send a PM to ASR asking them?

I did last week no reply yet though as I guess they must have been at SEMA

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by marconi118

are they using something like this?

What picture is that of? That's the original turbo is it not?

[marconi118]

It is a garret CHRA only oil cooled, found on the internet

[asr engineering]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

I'm totally with you on that and would welcome it if people here could stop such useless and counterproductive discussions.

Can you share a bit more light on the technical details of the upgrade? It would be great to know a bit more about them in order to be able to compare them to the Turbo Dynamics upgrade of the stock turbos that is discussed in another thread here (much more fact-oriented, by the way). I'm really interested in that because I think that ASR put a whole lot of research into that upgrade and that the decision to go with completely different (but superior) Garrett turbos makes the turbo upgrade more difficult technically, but probably more rewarding in terms of reliability and power. Care to elaborate? If possible.

Alpina_B3_Lux

The problem with the people dis-crediting our work is that they have no technical background in actual tooling or maching of turbos to back their claims. Any good turbo machining or manufacturing company will tell you ( Stated also by Turbo Dynamics) that the way our turbos and RD Sports turbos are done, are the only correct way to do a Garrett CHRA with these stock housings. Just because two companies chose to do it the only correct way, all of a sudden one is now copying the other. Then to go further and make claims that the balancing marks are identical. Of course they are, Garrett does that to all their comp and turbine wheels. If these guys making these claims were the least bit educated in the field, they would know that already. All this does is make them look like fools for questioning the validity of our work and further proving the lack of technical knowledge to back their claims.