[hassmaschine]

yeah unfortunately the intake vanos is already maxed out on the stock tune. I wondered about how much adjustment there might be in setting the intake cam timing..

[Mike.]

So all said and done its 450 to regrind the cams plus tuning for +/- around 20 whp..potentially

I like the odds

[justpete]

Originally Posted by andrey_gta

This sounds like a Disa manifold with no tune. Peak is down. Torque up in low range and maybe even Hp gain

Glad this has worked out so far

That was a mistake in me reading a bunch of data. Reran the dyno this am and it's down about fifteen hp with a fairly constant loss across the rpm range. I'm assuming it's because the DME doesn't know about the increased duration and won't force Vanos to decrease overlap.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by chris82

Wouldn't you prefer an increase in peak HP and sacrifice the low end torque?

No, that'd be useless everywhere but a few short places on a track, would make the car suck around town.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Mike.

so how could AA do this without having his car in house...over email w/ dyno sheets? If they will even do this sort of thing.

I'm told by AA that the cam profile info isn't in degrees, and they don't want to share the Vanos maps with Todd so I asked them if there's any particular info in any particular form he could provide that would allow them to correct the tune for the cam duration, etc. Not holding out much hope.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

he's saying it's because it isn't tuned. and I agree.

aside from the cam parameters, you would also likely want to alter the VANOS maps as the opening & closing timing of the valves will be a little different.

Cool, that's what I thought. Thanks.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Mike.

So all said and done its 450 to regrind the cams plus tuning for +/- around 20 whp..potentially

I like the odds

Hass is helping out here too so might be a chance, we'll see. Would hate to have to swap the stock cams back in.

[Mike.]

Originally Posted by justpete

Hass is helping out here too so might be a chance, we'll see. Would hate to have to swap the stock cams back in.

nothing is ever easy

[andrey_gta]

juspete's build thread needs to be made a Bimmerpost front page story. Don't recall if it was already

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Mike.

nothing is ever easy

Latest communication with AA seems to indicate there's a path to a custom tune so there's that. Talking with hass about an alternative method.

[Taskmaster]

There is also installing the cam retarded a few degrees....

[Taskmaster]

Pete I know it isn't the final numbers (because there is no tuning) but would you mind providing us (or just me) the overlay of the graphs?

[hassmaschine]

the total duration is definitely in both MSV70 and MSV80 - both intake & exhaust cams.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

the total duration is definitely in both MSV70 and MSV80 - both intake & exhaust cams.

You don't think having them retard the cam timing off by 1 tooth could allow more options to advance the cam/retard? Does the car currently max out cam advance.

[hassmaschine]

it maxes out intake retard but I don't think it maxes out the advance. it might work. you would just have to know that in the table where it says 120 degrees, it's really 125 degrees or whatever the physical offset is at the cam.

cam duration and VANOS are related, but separate. the DME has to know the position of the valve as it opens and closes. with a reground cam, I'd expect a longer duration (earlier opening/later closing) along with more lift. so the valve is opening earlier and closing later than the DME expects, plus it opens more than it thinks it does.

This affects things other than vanos - such as injector timing, which is based on when the intake valve opens & closes.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

it maxes out intake retard but I don't think it maxes out the advance. it might work. you would just have to know that in the table where it says 120 degrees, it's really 125 degrees or whatever the physical offset is at the cam.

cam duration and VANOS are related, but separate. the DME has to know the position of the valve as it opens and closes. with a reground cam, I'd expect a longer duration (earlier opening/later closing) along with more lift. so the valve is opening earlier and closing later than the DME expects, plus it opens more than it thinks it does.

This affects things other than vanos - such as injector timing, which is based on when the intake valve opens & closes.

Damn it Hass, I'm need a definitive answer! Can you do it?

[Mike.]

I believe in him. He just needs petes stock map

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Mike.

I believe in him. He just needs petes stock map

And therein lies the problem. The stock map downloaded with the Simon tool is in a proprietary file format for AA. The existing tune is their offroad one which might not be possible to modify even if I could download it. Hass mentioned the OFT as a way to get the binary out but I haven't had a lot of time to look for one. I found the original thread but haven't determined if it exists anymore as a saleable item, etc.

AA has agreed to do a custom tune but has asked for the stock and modified cam specs, neither of which I have although I've requested duration and lift from Todd, no answer yet. AA has not built a tune for a car with non-stock cams so it'll have to be iterated on the dyno.

Big question - will there be enough variability in Vanos to optimize overlap or will we have to mechanically offset the cams and enter the offset into the system somehow.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Damn it Hass, I'm need a definitive answer! Can you do it?

Pretty sure it's not an issue. What is an issue is whether the AA offroad tune can be downloaded and appropriately modified and then uploaded successfully. There may be a number of items locked out, no way of knowing but one would assume so to protect their IP.

If we have to start with a stock map, assuming I upload the originally downloaded stock file, the offroad tune features are lost. That'd suck.

[Tom Droze]

What ever happened to the good ol' plug and play days with "3/4 inch race cams" from JC Whitney?

Of course, this 3/4 inch race cam also had 380 degrees of duration.

Disclaimer: this is not a serious post!

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by justpete

And therein lies the problem. The stock map downloaded with the Simon tool is in a proprietary file format for AA. The existing tune is their offroad one which might not be possible to modify even if I could download it. Hass mentioned the OFT as a way to get the binary out but I haven't had a lot of time to look for one. I found the original thread but haven't determined if it exists anymore as a saleable item, etc.

AA has agreed to do a custom tune but has asked for the stock and modified cam specs, neither of which I have although I've requested duration and lift from Todd, no answer yet. AA has not built a tune for a car with non-stock cams so it'll have to be iterated on the dyno.

Big question - will there be enough variability in Vanos to optimize overlap or will we have to mechanically offset the cams and enter the offset into the system somehow.

There are a few of them for sale unmarried for $300.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

There are a few of them for sale unmarried for $300.

Cool, thanks. Hass mentioned this but didn't connect, duh.