[DaveFan782]

So I bought my E90 on Dec 4 with 32,xxx miles on it and one previous owner. Clean Carfax, clean dealership record, no obvious signs of damage (and I thought I was damn good at looking for that stuff).

On 1/11, BMWNA flagged my car, stating that "Vehicle was involved in severe front-center impact, as per national vehicle records database. Any warranty items that fail as a result of the accident or replaced parts can and will be denied by BMW of North America."

Nobody at my dealership knows what I should do, and nobody at BMWNA warranty headquarters is able to give us any answers. Carfax is still clean- and I'm now noticing recent date codes on the headlights, grille, hood, and some wiring harnesses forward of the engine.

Do I wait it out and risk it, or do I lose my ass and get a new car that I really can't afford now?

.....

[2e9x's]

I suggest contacting the prior owner immediately and retaining a good lawyer. Do not wait to see what happens. If the prior owner did not disclose the accident to you I suspect you might be able to unwind the deal due to fraud. But you need advice from a lawyer in your area.

[slammed]

^ +1

[nmcampbell]

What likely happened was the prior owner paid cash to have the damage fixed and avoided an insurance claim. Check with carfax...if I'm not mistaken, they offer some sort of guarantee if they screwed up. Call the prior owner and see what he/she is willing to share with information about this. Don't make any threats about suing, just get information. Used car sales from private owners are generally considered "as is" so the old "caveat emptor" rule applies. However, if the prior owner told you the warranty was still in place or made any false representations, then it's fraudulent inducement and you can sue to rescind the contract, i.e. the purchase deal. Unless your state has specific rules to the contrary, or unless you had a written purchase agreement with the owner providing for attorneys' fees, your attorneys' fees won't be recoverable. So before you rush out and give an attorney a retainer, you might want to see what you can accomplish on your own. My comments could also be dependent on your state-specific laws as each state varies.

Was there an ad (like autotrader)? Did it contain any information like "still under warranty"? Did the seller make any representations about the car still being under warranty? Did the seller say or advertise ANYTHING else (i.e. "the car has never been in an accident") that you've now learned to be false?

Assuming you didn't have a written purchase agreement (i.e. contract), then it would likely be considered an "oral contract." I don't know what the law is in your area but in California, you have two years to sue on an oral contract. I'm assuming it's at least one year in your state, if not longer so you probably have some time to sort through this before suing.

Good luck.

[majin ssj eric]

God, I'm glad I don't buy used anymore....

[hotrod2448]

As said above they have to disclose damage to the car beyond a certain % of the value. I would definitely contact a lawyer and let him do the talking for you.

[OtuaCarGod]

Shoulda got the CARFAX buyback guarantee...

Did u buy from a dealer or private party?

[demosthenes]

I would contact a lawyer to understand what the law is, what your rights are and develop a good strategy.

I would then follow that strategy. It might involve you approaching the seller or the attorney approaching the seller. The attorney is the expert, and assuming you find a good one, you should follow his or her advice.

[T Bone]

Personally, I would like you to get a remedy from Carfax but as a fellow member, the easier target is the BMW Dealership.

If it was a CPO vehicle, BMW USA is on the hook too.

Legal remedies are hard to get....I would turn the thumbscrews on the BMW dealer and get an amazing deal on a new / CPO car.

Good luck

[slubu]

Originally Posted by nmcampbell

What likely happened was the prior owner paid cash to have the damage fixed and avoided an insurance claim. Check with carfax...if I'm not mistaken, they offer some sort of guarantee if they screwed up. Call the prior owner and see what he/she is willing to share with information about this. Don't make any threats about suing, just get information. Used car sales from private owners are generally considered "as is" so the old "caveat emptor" rule applies. However, if the prior owner told you the warranty was still in place or made any false representations, then it's fraudulent inducement and you can sue to rescind the contract, i.e. the purchase deal. Unless your state has specific rules to the contrary, or unless you had a written purchase agreement with the owner providing for attorneys' fees, your attorneys' fees won't be recoverable. So before you rush out and give an attorney a retainer, you might want to see what you can accomplish on your own. My comments could also be dependent on your state-specific laws as each state varies.

Was there an ad (like autotrader)? Did it contain any information like "still under warranty"? Did the seller make any representations about the car still being under warranty? Did the seller say or advertise ANYTHING else (i.e. "the car has never been in an accident") that you've now learned to be false?

Assuming you didn't have a written purchase agreement (i.e. contract), then it would likely be considered an "oral contract." I don't know what the law is in your area but in California, you have two years to sue on an oral contract. I'm assuming it's at least one year in your state, if not longer so you probably have some time to sort through this before suing.

Good luck.

This man hit it on the head.

[DaveFan782]

Here's the deal...
I bought it from a VW dealer that we (our BMW dealer) does business with all the time. A few guys here know the owner, so that's how I got the deal I did.

When I test drove the car, I popped the hood and noticed the bolts on the hinge were banged up, indicating that the hood had been taken off. I asked my salesman, the finance manager and the used car manager if the car had been in a front-end impact. They all said that it wasn't, to the best of their knowledge. They did not disclose any accidents or issues at the time of sale, and stated that the car was a good deal since it was 'still under BMW warranty.'

I asked them ~1month ago if they'd replaced the windshield, as my microfilter housing was loose and causing water to leak through the blower motor and glove box onto the floorboards. They ignored my Email and never returned my calls; BMW replaced/repaired it under warranty, thank God.
But seeing as how they handled that issue, I'm terrified of going to them first with this one. The car sat on their lot for 6 months. I know they wouldn't take it back without a struggle.

I don't have a lot of money to deal with, but would legal counsel still be the way to go?

[demosthenes]

Originally Posted by DaveFan782

would legal counsel still be the way to go?

Yes, as a first step, to understand the law, your rights and to develop a strategy. How can you figure out what to do without knowing where you stand? There's a big difference between consulting a lawyer, divulging that you consulted an attorney and using an attorney to go to war. The attorney can advise you on the best course of action.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by DaveFan782

Here's the deal...
I bought it from a VW dealer that we (our BMW dealer) does business with all the time. A few guys here know the owner, so that's how I got the deal I did.

When I test drove the car, I popped the hood and noticed the bolts on the hinge were banged up, indicating that the hood had been taken off. I asked my salesman, the finance manager and the used car manager if the car had been in a front-end impact. They all said that it wasn't, to the best of their knowledge. They did not disclose any accidents or issues at the time of sale, and stated that the car was a good deal since it was 'still under BMW warranty.'

I asked them ~1month ago if they'd replaced the windshield, as my microfilter housing was loose and causing water to leak through the blower motor and glove box onto the floorboards. They ignored my Email and never returned my calls; BMW replaced/repaired it under warranty, thank God.
But seeing as how they handled that issue, I'm terrified of going to them first with this one. The car sat on their lot for 6 months. I know they wouldn't take it back without a struggle.

I don't have a lot of money to deal with, but would legal counsel still be the way to go?

The thing that drives me crazy is that people think the legal system is efficient and affordable.....it is not. This would almost be a last remedy after exhausting non-legal avenues.

Here is what I would do.....

1. Start up an inquiry with Carfax, state your case, drop the hint that car nuts are watching. Demand they buy the car.
2. Turn the thumbscrews on the dealership. Speak to the GM / Owner and clearly articulate your case and your desire to get another car and a great value to avoid legal escalation.....

If these 2 don't work out, you can sue Carfax, the previous owner and the dealership but this will get expensive.

[OtuaCarGod]

Originally Posted by DaveFan782

Here's the deal...
I bought it from a VW dealer that we (our BMW dealer) does business with all the time. A few guys here know the owner, so that's how I got the deal I did.

When I test drove the car, I popped the hood and noticed the bolts on the hinge were banged up, indicating that the hood had been taken off. I asked my salesman, the finance manager and the used car manager if the car had been in a front-end impact. They all said that it wasn't, to the best of their knowledge. They did not disclose any accidents or issues at the time of sale, and stated that the car was a good deal since it was 'still under BMW warranty.'

I asked them ~1month ago if they'd replaced the windshield, as my microfilter housing was loose and causing water to leak through the blower motor and glove box onto the floorboards. They ignored my Email and never returned my calls; BMW replaced/repaired it under warranty, thank God.
But seeing as how they handled that issue, I'm terrified of going to them first with this one. The car sat on their lot for 6 months. I know they wouldn't take it back without a struggle.

I don't have a lot of money to deal with, but would legal counsel still be the way to go?

OK, here's the deal. You're at the mercy of the dealership you bought the car from. Your best course of action will be to go into the dealership, not call and e-mail. Go on a Monday morning around 10am if you can. You'll generally find all the managers there with a little bit of time on their hands. Ask to speak with the general manager. Explain your issue calmly, and explain to him that it's been reccomended for you to seek legal council, which you would prefer not to do. And ask for his help. Go in there with an idea of what you want to get out of the dealership. Do you want a waranty on the car? Do you want them to take it back? Explain you've enjoyed doing buisness with their dealership in the past, and you would like to continue reccomending them to your friends, family, and co-workers. They should take care of you.

[Tag]

Go legal as many above have stated. I would still try to resolve it without having a legal battle but usually things like this end up not being resolved without some legal action. It's not worth it to tough it out and hope for the best. What can happen will happen and you will loose big on repairs or if you try to sell it.

Good Luck

[demosthenes]

It depends how you use the legal system. There's a huge difference between spending $500 - $1000 to understand your rights and starting an expensive legal battle, which should be your last resort.

Most of us aren't lawyers. How can we establish a strategy without knowing what the laws is, what our rights are and what works and what doesn't? It's like developing a strategy to treat a medical problem without consulting a physician.

[roadkillrob]

Carfax sucks - another example of how they are a waste of money unless you get the buyback and they usually have a way around that also - go after the dealer - if they had any decent mechanic go over the car, then they would know it was hit and didnt' tell you - carfax is not on the hook unless you got the buyback and the previous owner wether he told the dealer or not is exempt of liability as the dealer takes over that liablity (why it is safer to trade in a car than sell it privately).

Talk to the dealer and see if they will work anything out with you - if not, talk to a lawyer for a couple hundred bucks he can give you an hour of advice on what action you can take and sometimes just a letter from a lawyer to the dealer will be enough to get the dealer to make the issue go away instead of deal with it.

Best of luck!

[OtuaCarGod]

I believe a lawyer should be your LAST RESORT. You'd be surprised what you can accomplish by doing what I said earlier. The dealership isn't there to take advantage of people. The reality is the PROBABLY didn't know the car had been in an accident either. They just base that off of CARFAX, which, as you said, is clean. The dealership will want to take care of you, especially when you express you're desire to reccomend them to your friends/family/etc. for taking care of a touchy issue vs. spreading negative info. Trust me, I'm in the buisness.

Most likely the dealership doesn't understand the extent of the issue. If someone were coming to you to complain, would you be more likely to respond in a posative way if they came to you level headed and asked for a fair resolution, or if they came in threatning lawsuits etc., about an issue they didn't even know existed. Think about it.

[Revlis]

Originally Posted by nmcampbell

What likely happened was the prior owner paid cash to have the damage fixed and avoided an insurance claim. Check with carfax...if I'm not mistaken, they offer some sort of guarantee if they screwed up. Call the prior owner and see what he/she is willing to share with information about this. Don't make any threats about suing, just get information. Used car sales from private owners are generally considered "as is" so the old "caveat emptor" rule applies. However, if the prior owner told you the warranty was still in place or made any false representations, then it's fraudulent inducement and you can sue to rescind the contract, i.e. the purchase deal. Unless your state has specific rules to the contrary, or unless you had a written purchase agreement with the owner providing for attorneys' fees, your attorneys' fees won't be recoverable. So before you rush out and give an attorney a retainer, you might want to see what you can accomplish on your own. My comments could also be dependent on your state-specific laws as each state varies.

Was there an ad (like autotrader)? Did it contain any information like "still under warranty"? Did the seller make any representations about the car still being under warranty? Did the seller say or advertise ANYTHING else (i.e. "the car has never been in an accident") that you've now learned to be false?

Assuming you didn't have a written purchase agreement (i.e. contract), then it would likely be considered an "oral contract." I don't know what the law is in your area but in California, you have two years to sue on an oral contract. I'm assuming it's at least one year in your state, if not longer so you probably have some time to sort through this before suing.

Good luck.

If the carfax came in Clean, and there is Damage you might be in luck, but carfax is pretty useless for the most part, and they have yards of disclaimer language in place. Might be hard to nail them down.

[DaveFan782]

***UPDATE***

So we just put the car up in the air and here's what we found:

-Both headlights, kidney grilles, hood, and all parts back to the radiator/PS Cooler have been replaced.
-Both fenders have been repaired/re-painted

-Power Steering cooler lines (metal) are kinked and stressed. PS pump making noise.
-Radiator mounting brackets are cracked and broken, and are holding the radiator in place with shear bolts. (rad/ps cooler are loose)
-Thrust rod bushing is pissing out hydraulic fluid

So clearly, the car was in a wreck, although it was obviously not that bad if the rad, condenser, etc weren't replaced.
But, we know BMW won't cover the broken PS cooler, pump and lines, radiator mounts and thrust rod bushing under warranty.

So I'm thinking the idea of going into the dealership level-headed and asking for a specific resolution is the best place to start. Trying to deal with carfax, I'm imagining, will be nothing short of catastrophic and impossible.

Thanks for all your help thus far, everyone. All additional input is appreciated...I'll buy ya all drinks next time you're out here.

[OtuaCarGod]

Originally Posted by DaveFan782

I'll buy ya all drinks next time you're out here.

I'm gonna hold you to that... the way I drink I could probably save money buying a flight to Denver vs. going out and buying drinks here...

[ages944]

I feel for you. A situation like this is a PITA, for everyone involved.

I'm reminded of T.Roosevelt here. Walk softly and carry a big stick. In this case, I think the advice to talk to the dealership is a good idea. Best case would be to get it resolved that way. However, I would still get the legal counsel so that you know what to do next if option A doesn't work out.

Ultimately, this is not BMWs fault, nor even the dealership's, but rather the original owner / CARFAX. The collision should have been recorded and disclosed.