[Chief Orman]

My mechanic is in the midst of installing my water meth system. However, he installed the nozzles near the top of the charge pipe (see pic) and I am concerned that these should be placed lower down so that the IAT can sense the cooler intake from the system. Is this correct? Will the current install site create problems?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated since I need to get out of town tomorrow and if he needs to move the noozles he will have to get on it first thing tomorrow.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

Sorry I can't seem to get a picture to upload

See attached PDF please...sorry about that

[Chief Orman]

see pic

[DWR]

Here you go Chief - more time to evaporate is better. Letting DDE know temp is cooler is usually better, also.

Oops, you beat me to it

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by DWR

Here you go Chief - more time to evaporate is better. Letting DDE know temp is cooler is usually better, also.

Oops, you beat me to it

Thanks DWR! In other words, I should have him move the nozzles down lower on the charge pipe. Please confirm.

Just out of curiosity, would the current nozzle placement work at all?

Does my mechanics concern about it not being good for the IAT to be sprayed with water and meth make sense?

[Hoooper]

The w/m doesn't really seem to have a negative affect on the iat sensor. You should have him move them down if possible. Mine is way down as close to the intercooler outlet as possible.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

The w/m doesn't really seem to have a negative affect on the iat sensor. You should have him move them down if possible. Mine is way down as close to the intercooler outlet as possible.

Yep, I agree with Hoooper. But then, great minds think alike

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by DWR

Yep, I agree with Hoooper. But then, great minds think alike

Thanks Hooper....Know that my mechanic will hate your guys guts when I deliver the news that the nozzles have to move lower down:-)

[TDIwyse]

It's a lot less fussing around to install them higher up, and you also would have less worries about leaking fluid into your intake (you'll need at the minimum a check valve to keep gravity from draining the fluid if your injector is lower than your resevoir).

This pic is from mid 2012 when I first started playing with water/injection. There's more places to run into interference down low, so you need to think it out a little bit before choosing the location.

I've been considering moving the IAT location further up the charge pipe path to allow more evaporation time, but haven't done that yet...

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

It's a lot less fussing around to install them higher up, and you also would have less worries about leaking fluid into your intake (you'll need at the minimum a check valve to keep gravity from draining the fluid if your injector is lower than your resevoir).

This pic is from mid 2012 when I first started playing with water/injection. There's more places to run into interference down low, so you need to think it out a little bit before choosing the location.

I've been considering moving the IAT location further up the charge pipe path to allow more evaporation time, but haven't done that yet...

Thanks TDI. If I am understanding you correctly, there is a benefit to where my nozzles are installed given that they are above the reservoir due to drainage issues. Correct?

Does the location before the IAT trump those considerations? I just don't think it is feasible for me to ask my mechanic to move the IAT unfortunately.

Given your experience, how suboptimal is the current location? Which is to say, could I ask him to move just the 175mm nozzle down the charge pipe and leave the second stage one where it is?

If not, based on the pics I have seen from nozzle installs I was thinking of proposing a configuration where the nozzles migrate down the pipe, below the IAT and are lined up vertically, I.e., looking down the pipe the would be lined up so that they are not spraying directly across from one another. It occurred to me that from an atomization standpoint you don't want two streams of fluid spraying directly across from one another. What do you think?

By the way, what is the probability that a check valve was included with the snow kit?

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

Thanks TDI. If I am understanding you correctly, there is a benefit to where my nozzles are installed given that they are above the reservoir due to drainage issues. Correct?

Does the location before the IAT trump those considerations? I just don't think it is feasible for me to ask my mechanic to move the IAT unfortunately.

Given your experience, how suboptimal is the current location? Which is to say, could I ask him to move just the 175mm nozzle down the charge pipe and leave the second stage one where it is?

If not, based on the pics I have seen from nozzle installs I was thinking of proposing a configuration where the nozzles migrate down the pipe, below the IAT and are lined up vertically, I.e., looking down the pipe the would be lined up so that they are not spraying directly across from one another. It occurred to me that from an atomization standpoint you don't want two streams of fluid spraying directly across from one another. What do you think?

By the way, what is the probability that a check valve was included with the snow kit?

Not sure what your snow kit came with. I'd expect any decent kit to have at least a check valve. A lot will come with a solenoid, which is generally considered a step up as it gives faster on/off control.

I wouldn't worry too much about the location since you've already got things installed ... I'd expect you'll still get the majority of the benefits. The DDE will probably have the injection timing set a little later than "optimum" when you're spraying as the actual air temp will be lower than what it thinks it is (based on data I collected with main injection timing with and without H2O/methanl). But this shouldn't be that big of deal, unless you're trying to squeeze out all the performance you could muster. At least that's what I'd expect... others may differ.

I don't think I'd want two big nozzles pointed across from each other. Perhaps 2 small ones would be ok depending on various factors... but I'd probably choose not to place them across from each other if it was me installing them.

[Kjelly]

The benefit of the IAT seeing cooler temperatures would be an increase in fuel efficiency.

Also, I would potentially have the installer separate the nozzles further...although they are at 90 degrees, I would be concerned about the sprays not atomizing because they would hit each other. So, have the smaller nozzle spray before the sensor and keep the larger nozzle in its original spot.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Not sure what your snow kit came with. I'd expect any decent kit to have at least a check valve. A lot will come with a solenoid, which is generally considered a step up as it gives faster on/off control.

I wouldn't worry too much about the location since you've already got things installed ... I'd expect you'll still get the majority of the benefits. The DDE will probably have the injection timing set a little later than "optimum" when you're spraying as the actual air temp will be lower than what it thinks it is (based on data I collected with main injection timing with and without H2O/methanl). But this shouldn't be that big of deal, unless you're trying to squeeze out all the performance you could muster. At least that's what I'd expect... others may differ.

I don't think I'd want two big nozzles pointed across from each other. Perhaps 2 small ones would be ok depending on various factors... but I'd probably choose not to place them across from each other if it was me installing them.

That all makes sense. The configuration that I proposed above is the nozzles separated vertically...one above the other to exactly avoid the nozzles spraying at one another.

In the picture below I have highlighted the location of the flow control valve. Given that it is located above the tank and nozzles I think I am OK not adding a check valve.

Thanks to all for the great feedback.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

In the picture below I have highlighted the location of the flow control valve. Given that it is located above the tank and nozzles I think I am OK not adding a check valve.

If you are using a solenoid you are all set (the closer to the nozzles, the better). Don't need the check valve. Leaving the nozzles where they are won't create a problem. However, since someone else is doing the work, maybe you want it done as good as it can be the first time?

My intake tract looks like the Frankenstein monster with all the plugs in "its neck", lol.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by DWR

If you are using a solenoid you are all set (the closer to the nozzles, the better). Don't need the check valve. Leaving the nozzles where they are won't create a problem. However, since someone else is doing the work, maybe you want it done as good as it can be the first time?

My intake tract looks like the Frankenstein monster with all the plugs in "its neck", lol.

Thanks DWR. We are gonna move the nozzles down the charge pipe so that they are below the sensor. Everyone and everything I have read says below sensor below the IAT is best even though other locations will also but just not as well.

I am also planning on separating the nozzles vertically meaning that to ensure I don't have streams of mist spraying at each other which effectively diminishes the atomization of the water sprayed in the charge pipe. I might be over thinking it, but since I am now in day three of the install I am going to get it dialed in exactly the way I want.

By the way, I still don't fully understand how these systems get the turbo boost pressure reading. Is it from tapping the charge pipe and installing a sensor that is provided with the kit or is it tapping the turbo boost sensor that is built into the car? Nube question but it is driving me crazy.

By the way for you ninja mechanics out there this install has some complexity to it.

Any words of wisdom on tank install? Better yet, send pictures. Putting the snow 2.5 gallon tank near the wheel well makes it surprisingly hard to fill given the curvature of the rear panel as it comes up to meet the trunk lid.

[32valves]

are you getting a new charge pipe or using the same one?

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

By the way, I still don't fully understand how these systems get the turbo boost pressure reading. Is it from tapping the charge pipe and installing a sensor that is provided with the kit or is it tapping the turbo boost sensor that is built into the car? Nube question but it is driving me crazy.

Use the sensor that came in the kit. Tap the intake manifold. You want to be after the throttle valve, so it senses boost as the engine sees it.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by 32valves

are you getting a new charge pipe or using the same one?

Great question. Now that I have perforated the pipe I am toying with the idea of buying a new one. Not thrilled at the idea of the amount of welding and hole patching that now needs to be done. Also wondering if I should get a Wagner IC upgrade. However I have yet to read anything that says the Wagner IC is a huge improvement save for one or two on this board.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

...Now that I have perforated the pipe I am toying with the idea of buying a new one. Not thrilled at the idea of the amount of welding and hole patching that now needs to be done. ...

As DWR alluded to, you can use something like this to plug the 1/8 NPT holes instead of welding them shut. I've had a couple stainless plugs in place for several years without issue.

http://www.amazon.com/Torque-Solutio...plug+stainless

[Chief Orman]

Success...Snow Performance water/meth installed. 175mm at 12 psi to 24 psi; second nozzle 375 mm at 25 psi. Car is faster for sure. Install done properly is time consuming. Thanks to all for the great advice.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

It's a lot less fussing around to install them higher up, and you also would have less worries about leaking fluid into your intake (you'll need at the minimum a check valve to keep gravity from draining the fluid if your injector is lower than your resevoir).

This pic is from mid 2012 when I first started playing with water/injection. There's more places to run into interference down low, so you need to think it out a little bit before choosing the location.

I've been considering moving the IAT location further up the charge pipe path to allow more evaporation time, but haven't done that yet...

Tdi I noticed that my car has some difficulty turning over, I.e., I have to keep the starter button depressed. This has only started since I installed my Snow kit. Even though the kit is controlled by a solenoid do you think that water/meth is pooling somehow in the cylinder head.

Interesting note, I decided to buy a new charge pipe to ease the installation for my mechanic. With the new pipe in place my turbo PSI has climbed to 30 psi. Not too shabby.

[Hoooper]

Have you been running the engine hard right up to shut down? On mine if I don't drive calmly for a couple minutes or let it idle it will have a harder/longer start. That only seems to happen with methanol running. I have a solenoid on mine.