[Ballistic]

Hello all,

In Holland we are very low on ethanol. E85 is not available at all (anymore!) and our regular gas has only levels of 10% dry ethanol and is mixed with lower grade fuel to keep octane on 95RON value.

However, i have found 100% hydrous ethanol in Germany for less then a liter of 95RON. Im planning to buy a few 100 liters and mix it my self. E30 for now, maybe E50 later after a fuel pump upgrade. And eventually the Motiv MHD FlexFuel setup ofcourse.

I have been reading about the difference between hydrous (usually 96% ethanol, 4% water) vs anhydrous ethanol (100% ethanol)
A good read: http://www.heblends.com/index.php?op...d=21&Itemid=25
This page, among others, state that hydrous (wet) ethanol usually performs better then anhydrous (dry) ethanol in combustion engines. Upto 15% better fuel economy was shown during E20 to E30 tests.

What do you guys think? Should i be watering dow? Simply add 400ml of tap water to 10L of ethanol to get a gasoline+ethanol+water mixture or keep it dry to keep the gasoline+ethanol mixture?

[N52 Moistenor]

Originally Posted by Ballistic

Hello all,

In Holland we are very low on ethanol. E85 is not available at all (anymore!) and our regular gas has only levels of 10% dry ethanol and is mixed with lower grade fuel to keep octane on 95RON value.

However, i have found 100% hydrous ethanol in Germany for less then a liter of 95RON. Im planning to buy a few 100 liters and mix it my self. E30 for now, maybe E50 later after a fuel pump upgrade. And eventually the Motiv MHD FlexFuel setup ofcourse.

I have been reading about the difference between hydrous (usually 96% ethanol, 4% water) vs anhydrous ethanol (100% ethanol)
A good read: http://www.heblends.com/index.php?op...d=21&Itemid=25
This page, among others, state that hydrous (wet) ethanol usually performs better then anhydrous (dry) ethanol in combustion engines. Upto 15% better fuel economy was shown during E20 to E30 tests.

What do you guys think? Should i be watering dow? Simply add 400ml of tap water to 10L of ethanol to get a gasoline+ethanol+water mixture or keep it dry to keep the gasoline+ethanol mixture?

ethanol is not good for your fuel system. I wouldnt recommend using it for a prolonged period of time without upgrading your whole fuel system to compensate for it. you're best off using a good quality ethanol-free fuel.

[NoQuarter]

Originally Posted by N52 Moistenor

ethanol is not good for your fuel system. I wouldnt recommend using it for a prolonged period of time without upgrading your whole fuel system to compensate for it. you're best off using a good quality ethanol-free fuel.

This is not true and has fallen out of internet advice for a few years now.

[N52 Moistenor]

Originally Posted by NoQuarter

This is not true and has fallen out of internet advice for a few years now.

look it up on the internet maybe?

[feuer]

Originally Posted by NoQuarter

This is not true and has fallen out of internet advice for a few years now.

Please explain further. I would really like to know why and how the internet figure this out as in countries that still use ethanol free gasoline these engines, N53 and N54, with Piezo injectors experience lot less issues vs let's say in US where ethanol is used. I'm assuming your and the internet claim that you agree with are going to be anecdotal just like mine.

[NoQuarter]

Or the hundreds+ of enthusiasts that have been running high E for years on purpose and brand new flex fuel capability that will introduce it to 100's more for our cars.


Seriously... this iArgument was over a few years ago.

[Ballistic]

Anyone calling out ethanol as a bad thing; Please go back to school.

Lets get back on topic

[NoQuarter]

Originally Posted by Ballistic

Anyone calling out ethanol as a bad thing; Please go back to school.

Lets get back on topic

Agreed. This is not 2011.

[NoQuarter]

I'm not not sure the fuel economy improvement would be a motivating factor for me considering the hit you already take with the higher E.

For myself, I would leave it as is (anhydrous). If I did add water, it would be distilled water (not tap water).

[NoQuarter]

Originally Posted by feuer

Please explain further. I would really like to know why and how the internet figure this out as in countries that still use ethanol free gasoline these engines, N53 and N54, with Piezo injectors experience lot less issues vs let's say in US where ethanol is used. I'm assuming your and the internet claim that you agree with are going to be anecdotal just like mine.

A understand the apprehension on this, I really do. But we are way beyond anecdotal evidence these days. We have years of experience in these cars now where guys started experimenting with high E tunes.

There was all doom-and-gloom critics at the time but this has been proven above and beyond.

Is it "safer" without high E blends. Certainly.
Does it really matter? no.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by NoQuarter

A understand the apprehension on this, I really do. But we are way beyond anecdotal evidence these days. We have years of experience in these cars now where guys started experimenting with high E tunes.

There was all doom-and-gloom critics at the time but this has been proven above and beyond.

Is it "safer" without high E blends. Certainly.
Does it really matter? no.

You still haven't explain anything nor backed up these claims that still remain purely anecdotal.

[Ballistic]

Stop hijacking my thread please!!

Do you even read this forum? More then half of us are chasing some E with very good results and no noticable downsides found as of yet. We have companies (Motiv, MHD) investings months (or is it years already!) working on a flex fuel setup for our cars. Yet you are here claiming water can burn.

Also. Read the link in my topic start. Nothing is anecdotal here you damn millenial.

Hydrous ethanol becomes even more practicable as the ethanol percentage increases, such as in formulating E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline). Indeed, straight hydrous ethanol (without a gasoline component) is already being applied directly as a motor fuel in Brazil"

"HE Blends, in collaboration with other European organizations, has completed initial vehicle tests confirming that, with proper practices, hydrous ethanol can be blended effectively with gasoline without phase separation or other problems. An unmodified Volkswagen Golf 5 FSI was operated successfully on hE15 (15% hydrous ethanol blended with gasoline), meeting European exhaust emission standards in testing conducted by the Netherlands research organization TNO Automotive and by SGS Drive Technology Center of Austria. HE Blends continues to operate and monitor several company vehicles on hE15, with favorable results"

A major engine and vehicle testing program by FEV Motorentechnik GmbH / RWTH Aachen University Germany is scheduled to begin in 2008, with funding from the Dutch and German governments.

The results of these test programs have already lead to 5% mimimum required ethanol level in all versions of EUR95 fuels in Holland. This year this will be brought to 10 or 15% minimum due to the excelent real-life results.
Also all standard fuel (RON95) equivelent in France has dissapeared and moved to E10.

There are only a few cars/brands/types that realy do not like ethanol because of the rubber/gaskets not able to withstand the ethanol. These are pretty much all cars from 2001 or older.

Now go ahead and create your own topic if you want to bitch about ethanol some more.

Originally Posted by N52 Moistenor

ethanol is not good for your fuel system. I wouldnt recommend using it for a prolonged period of time without upgrading your whole fuel system to compensate for it. you're best off using a good quality ethanol-free fuel.

Go away n00b!!

[boostE92d]

I don't know about anecdotal, I do have 100 thousand plus miles between two n54 powered cars of e30 to e60 blends. The problems I've run into are ocassioal giddyness and premature tire wear. I'm willing to do extra maintenance on my fueling system if needed. So far I've seen no need for even that. Even if the cars were totalled out tomorrow due to my cavalier use of devil fuel, I would say it was worth it. Take your silly alarmist sayings somewhere else, the benefits outweigh the cost, by far.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Ballistic

Stop hijacking my thread please!!

Do you even read this forum? More then half of us are chasing some E with very good results and no noticable downsides found as of yet. We have companies (Motiv, MHD) investings months (or is it years already!) working on a flex fuel setup for our cars. Yet you are here claiming water can burn.

Also. Read the link in my topic start. Nothing is anecdotal here you damn millenial.

I guess automakers suing US EPA in 2010 and VW waiting until 2014 to approve e15 for their engines are all clueless. I agree, is good for making power but not sure about potential harm to engine fuel components not designed for ethanol. Would like to see more substantial evidence specifically for this platform. That's all. But is OK, is your thread and as you wish I will remove myself from the discussion. Carry on.

[AWSAWS]

Op just use anhydrous ethanol. Yes water is good for combustion. It cools the air and the cylinder and reduces knock but the injectors are not built to handle water.
There is a danger of corrosion and seizing.

I use water methanol injection so I've read countless scientific research papers.

There's the small danger as well that over time you might get an accumulation of water over time in the fuel tank to where you get a separation. The water would sink to the bottom and be drawn up by the pump first. Then hitting your injectors. Unlikely but best to be safe. Ethanol is hygroscopic after all.

[AWSAWS]

Ethanol is less friendly to our cars purely because you have to pump more fuel and so you place more stress on your injectors. Simple wear and tear.
The actual lines and seals are ethanol compatible these days.

[Riceball777]

Originally Posted by N52 Moistenor

ethanol is not good for your fuel system. I wouldnt recommend using it for a prolonged period of time without upgrading your whole fuel system to compensate for it. you're best off using a good quality ethanol-free fuel.

your 100% wrong. Most performance turbos guys now a days from e85 all the time. I ran e85 in my 2003 evo and my honda s2000 for years and now i run it on my 335i. This is with all stock fuel lines and stock fuel system with the exceptions of a bigger after market fuel pump and injectors.

[N52 Moistenor]

Originally Posted by Riceball777

your 100% wrong. Most performance turbos guys now a days from e85 all the time. I ran e85 in my 2003 evo and my honda s2000 for years and now i run it on my 335i. This is with all stock fuel lines and stock fuel system with the exceptions of a bigger after market fuel pump and injectors.

give it another few years then.

you've 100% missed the point, again. please read the last 3 posts before you.

[boostE92d]

Originally Posted by N52 Moistenor

give it another few years then.

you've 100% missed the point, again. please read the last 3 posts before you.

You're missing the point. The benefits outweigh the cost. I don't expect this car to last forever. I running the turbos way harder than they were designed to be run. When they die I will replace them with one bigger one. If the engine dies, I'll rebuild it or move on to another platform. It is going to be ok fella.

[N52 Moistenor]

Originally Posted by boostE92d

You're missing the point. The benefits outweigh the cost. I don't expect this car to last forever. I running the turbos way harder than they were designed to be run. When they die I will replace them with one bigger one. If the engine dies, I'll rebuild it or move on to another platform. It is going to be ok fella.

well that's in your case. you act as if everyone uses their car the way you do, it doesnt make any sense to me.

[boostE92d]

Originally Posted by N52 Moistenor

well that's in your case. you act as if everyone uses their car the way you do, it doesnt make any sense to me.

Lol, whut? That is absolutely air tight. Im convinced, I need that fuel out of my car, now. I've got a hose in my garage but can't stand strong smells. If I hold the hose do you think you could do that sucking thing and get it out of my tank? I mean you did come into a thread about e85 to save us from ourselves, don't give up now.