[stevem0]

Sorry for the weird problems.

I have a 2011 328i sedan.

FRM module no communication in both ISTA and INPA.

purchased a used one, still no communication.
fuse locations

View post on imgur.com

The fuse #15 is good. But when I check voltage across the #15 terminals, I get nothing. When I test each one to ground, I get one with +12V and one no continuity to ground.
?: Is this normal? should the terminal with no continuity go to a relay? If so, which one.

What else should I check to confirm that both my FRM units are bad?

The orange relay does work correctly, pulled it out and tested it.

Thank You

[gbalthrop]

Questions:

1) Do ALL your other Modules appear in the ISTA Control Unit Tree/ List?

2) Do ALL your other Modules appear in INPA > Functional Jobs > F2 Identification?

3) What Warning Lights do you have on Instrument Cluster?

4) What Fault Codes do you have in OTHER Modules?

5) What FRM Lighting Functions, window functions, do NOT work?

6) Do you have Adaptive Headlights?

7) WHY are you concerned with F15? ISTA & Bentley say that's for Amplifer (audio) which has nothing to do with FRM. Also KL 30g has NOTHING to do with FRM, as that is basically an Accessory Relay.

Generally if ONE Module cannot be "Connected to" or does NOT appear in List or Tree:
a) Its power supply for "Electronics" is absent;
b) Its Bus Connection (here K-CAN Bus) is missing or damaged.

Attached to NEXT POST, so as NOT to destroy margins here, are 4 ScreenPrints from ISTA, showing the Power Supply Fuses to your FRM Module, and the K-CAN Bus connections, with Connector (X14260) Location and View, along with wiring between FRM Module and the JBE (Connector X14271 on right edge of that ScreenPrint). The JBE is the "Hub" to which the Scan Tool/ OBD II Cable connects, and to which ALL Modules connect via the various BUS Systems (K-CAN, PT-CAN, etc.).

So check the four fuses that power your FRM Module: F41, F81, F84 & F86. If they are ALL good, then check the two Pins at Connector X14260 at the FRM Module that provide K-CAN connection: Pin #45, Green wire, and Pin #46, Orange/ Green wire. Make sure pins & sockets are clean & undamaged. Use Electronic Contact Cleaner to clean pins & sockets of any corrosion.

Please let us know answers to questions and result of above tests.
George

[gbalthrop]

ScreenPrints attached per prior post.
George

[stevem0]

Hello, Thank You. Questions/Answers 1-7, working on the rest.

[stevem0]

So check the four fuses that power your FRM Module: F41, F81, F84 & F86. If they are ALL good, then check the two Pins at Connector X14260 at the FRM Module that provide K-CAN connection: Pin #45, Green wire, and Pin #46, Orange/ Green wire. Make sure pins & sockets are clean & undamaged. Use Electronic Contact Cleaner to clean pins & sockets of any corrosion.


I have pulled those 4 fuses 4-5 times, I did again they are all good.

When I changed the FRM yesterday, all those connections looked new. (The FRM board I removed looked brand new) The one I purchased has seals on the connectors If I want to return it defective. I am making another pdf for all the screenshots.

[stevem0]

Attached are the screenshots in pdf. Thanks again for your help.

[gbalthrop]

I have reviewed your pdfs you attached to Posts #4 & #6. Here are my observations and suggestions based upon your answers to my questions, and INPA/ISTA screens you included in Q&A pdf.

1) "72 FRM" is missing from the INPA > Functional Jobs > F2 Identification ScreenPrint. The FRM has the "address"/ADR = "72". It should appear between "6D FAS" & "73 CID". So that is confirming the same thing indicated by ISTA Control Unit Tree, which shows FRM in Red = NO communication.

2) The only warning light on the Instrument Cluster (engine off) that is helpful is the "car on lift" and "!" in yellow triangle indicating "CC-ID" present. Although it is UNLIKELY that "Check Control" to read code for the CC-ID would yield any NEW information, NOT disclosed by INPA/ ISTA, I'm anal enough that I would Check Control. Almost certainly something very general about FRM.

3) The Fault Codes shown, in the KOMBI (Instrument Cluster) Module and DME as "receivers" of expected communications, indicate NO signal received from FRM as transmitter. Those are further confirmation that (1) the FRM electronics are NOT powered, OR (2) there is NO Bus communication with the FRM, most likely the latter given that you have "checked 4 FRM fuses" multiple times. However, have you tested electrically with multimeter for battery voltage at the four pins at the FRM connectors?

That's X14260/2 (Pin #2 of Connector X14260) and X14261/1, X14261/3, & X14261/34. Current from the fuse has to pass through TWO connectors, one on firewall side of JB Fuse Panel, and one at the FRM, so make sure you have 12V+ in reference to chassis ground at EACH of those four connector Sockets. See "Connector View" in ISTA for Pin/Socket identification, and confirm by wire color shown in SSP.

NOTE: the "30" above the Fuse symbol for each of the four FRM Fuses. That means "Terminal 30" or UN-switched battery power supply to those fuses, so you don't need Ignition ON (KL15) to have 12V+ in those tests, and there is less chance of an error shorting something if you test any "KL30" circuit with Ignition OFF.

4) In an E90 or E91, the REAR windows should work using the switch on the rear door, as those are operated by the JBE w/o FRM function. If ALL your exterior lights work (except turn indicator or possibly flasher, which require BUS communication), then MORE reason to suspect K-CAN wires (Green & Orange/Green, at X14260/45 & X14260/46). Examine those pins & sockets carefully, particularly sockets of connector since THAT is the part that has NOT been replaced.

5) "Terminal 15" is the "Ignition Relay" which is activated by the CAS Module, along with "Terminal 30g" which is the large, black "Accessory" relay on right side of JB Fuse Panel. If the warning lights illuminate on the Instrument Cluster when the START button is pressed, WITHOUT pressing Brake/Clutch, and then the Engine starts when Brake/Clutch pressed while pressing START button, the Ignition Relay (Terminal 15 or KL 15) is working. That relay is soldered to the circuit board of the JB Fuse panel.

The CONCEPT of "Terminals" or KL = Klemmen, is key to following ISTA wiring diagrams. Google Translate provides the word "Clamps" as the translation of "Klemmen". I don't speak German, and have NO formal instruction in that language, but KL30g (AKA IO1068) is CLEARLY a relay, and KL15 (AKA IO1069) is also a relay. Read FUB's (Functional Descriptions) of "Terminal Control" in ISTA or BMW Training Manuals, and it's clear they are NOT talking about "Clamps" in the mechanical sense.

6) While on subject of KL15, NOTE that the CAS Module sends a signal to the FRM via the Green/Yellow wire, "15_LSZ" to activate the Light Switch Cluster (Exterior Lights, headlights & side lights). I believe (NOT sure) that is "Terminal 15-3" in the CAS Module Terminals (INPA > CAS > F5 Status > F2 Analog > F1 Diagnose Terminals), so you can use THAT INPA Screen to see if CAS is activating things as it should (KL50 is Starter Solenoid activation and KLR is Radio activation).

7) I have never used the ISTA "Procedure" you show in your last answer. The way I understand Module function, the screen in the "Flow-chart" you show is assessing Voltage supply. What happens when you click "Yes"? Does it continue to suggest tests to determine if voltage from fuses is reaching FRM? Does it get into K-CAN Bus connection tests?

My understanding of ISTA is that it is a "Flow-chart" or "Trail-of-Breadcrumbs" approach, where it gives the "Next-Step" based upon your answers to preceding questions. I would suggest following the "Bread-crumb Trail" and seeing where it leads.

My SWAG is that you have a K-CAN Bus connection problem (Green & Orange/Green wires), but make sure power is getting to EACH of the 4 Pins identified above (5 if you include 15_LSZ, and Ignition ON for that one) FIRST.

Please let us know how it goes,
George

[stevem0]

Thank You George!!!! Your responses are fantastic, it makes me want to leave work early to go get this fixed. I will keep you updated.

[stevem0]

One question:

you have "checked 4 FRM fuses" multiple times. However, have you tested electrically with multimeter for battery voltage at the four pins at the FRM connectors?"

Should there be 12V across the fuse terminals OR will I have 12V from one terminal to ground? Thanks!

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by stevem0

... Should there be 12V across the fuse terminals OR will I have 12V from one terminal to ground?

When I am measuring Voltage of a particular wire or pin, I think of measuring voltage/ electrical Potential, between (A) the wire/pin, and (B) Chassis Ground.

The concept that works for me is to think of "Voltage" as "Potential" or "Electical Potential". The "Old-School Analog" or similar concept, used to compare Voltage to something more "mechanical" or visual, is to compare Voltage to Water Pressure. Water does NOT flow through a Pressure Gauge -- the gauge merely shows pressure (Potential) exerted by the water at the gauge.

Voltage of a battery is the Difference or Potential between the B+ terminal or Positive Battery Terminal, and the Negative terminal. Since the Negative Battery Terminal is Connected to the Chassis metal, contacting that "Chassis Ground" with the Black Meter Probe is effectively the SAME as contacting the Negative Battery Terminal.

Anyone (MOST of us ;-) who has ever touched a B+ terminal or wire AND chassis ground with a wrench, and seen the sparks (or worse) understandably has a natural aversion to putting meter probes on battery terminals, but when you are measuring VOLTAGE, there are NO sparks, NO short, NO lightshow, and NOTHING gets welded to the chassis.

You MAY wonder how important it is to put Red Probe on B+ and Black on Ground/Negative. Again, NO lightshow, short, sparks or drama. ALL that happens is the meter display reads - 12.x Volts. Same value, just "minus" instead of "plus" due to "polarity" change.

Since the Pins at which you are going to measure Voltage are (SHOULD be ;-) connected to B+ Battery terminal by the wiring back to the fuse, and the wiring between the B+ terminal and the fuse, its all the same as putting Red meter Probe on B+ battery post, and Black meter Probe on Negative battery post. IF the circuit is NOT OPEN somewhere. THAT is what you are testing for. "Power Supply" means NO open circuit between B+ and component supplied with power.

So each fuse has TWO spade sockets. ONE (the one connected to B+) should have 12V+ Potential/ Voltage in relation to chassis ground. The other should have NO or virtually no voltage in relation to ground (fuse removed and Red Meter Probe contacting ONE spade socket. If your fuses have large enough holes in the Plastic end cover, you can just insert Red Probe into that hole, and Contact Chassis with Black Probe.

However, to be absolutely clear, what you REALLY need to do is measure voltage at the FRM Connector Sockets, to make sure the wiring between FRM Connectors, and JB Fuses is intact.

You seem to enjoy figuring out INPA & ISTA, so please educate the rest of us as you go.

BTW, you can save ScreenPrints from either INPA or ISTA as jpg files and attach them here. Best to either attach them to separate post (so margins don't get messed up), or to "resize" to 50%, as the INPA CAS Terminal Diagnosis Screen attached below. See detailed procedure in "INPA Tutorial Quickstart" also attached.

George

[stevem0]

Thank You. Not sure what I was thinking on the fuse terminal voltage. Previously I had pulled a fuse and measured 12V on one terminal and 0V on the other (For some reason I thought there should be 12V on both those fuse terminals). Just like cutting a wire in half that has 12V on it, only one of those wires will have 12V. I will confirm voltage at all 5 connectors to the FRM. (Ignition on #12 is X14261?)

Also, the Rear windows do work. All Exterior lights work except turn signals.

[stevem0]

It seems your swag may be correct. Any ideas to confirm the network issue without me getting another FRM?

12V is on all 4 of those terminals, and the 5th when ignition turns on. These are in those two X14260 & x14261 connectors to the FRM.

I have included screenshots of inpa voltages with ignition on and engine running.

The Hall12 and Hall34 voltages are bouncing around from 0 to 12V, Here is a 7 second video, is this normal? (Video when engine off, but ignition on)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ina...ORzrg2u5m/view

[stevem0]

While typing all this, I left my computer connected watching the battery level (with ignition on), I had a trickle charge of 2A connected. I heard some relay click, radio turned off and looked and the voltage dropped to 9V. Maybe I have a bad/flaky battery/cell and the low voltages are messing up my FRMs?

[stevem0]

I guess having the voltage on all 4/5 of the locations on the FRM connectors only leaves me with 2 options: (1) bad FRM or (2) bad K-CAN Bus connection problem. (The K-Can terminals and Green & Orange/Green wires looked good, no corrosion or other wear that I could see)

I have sent out one FRM for eeprom repair. Could the low voltage issue cause a problem with the FRM? I am getting the battery tested, it is less than 1 year old, if needed I will get a new one. If it is good, I have to figure out what caused the low voltage as I do not want that happening again if that messed up the FRM.

For the potential K-CAN Bus connection problem: I assume that since other modules are showing up, at least a part of the bus is working, usually if there is a problem on the bus, it would take the entire bus down, correct?

Are there any additional tests to perform to confirm the K-Can bus is working correctly?

I have read over the instructions again, the only item I think I missed is the "Check Control" mentioned in post #7 item 2.

[stevem0]

FYI, received back my original FRM, the eeprom was corrupted, partition error? Anyhow it was recovered and repaired. Installed and everything works again.

Anyone care to speculate on why my voltage would drop randomly as I describe above? We guess this is the situation that corrupted the FRM. Thanks!

[BNRguy]

"I have sent out one FRM for eeprom repair. Could the low voltage issue cause a problem with the FRM?"

I currently have my 2011 328xi in the shop with FRM issues. The past winter, the car was not driven much and the battery "died". This past week, I boosted it and took it in for a new battery and annual maintenance. I got a phone call that the 4x4 Warning light would not clear. They thought the FRM was the issue.
Luckily, there is a BMW "secret warranty" that replaced the FRM gratis.

In talking to the Service Rep, I asked why the failure. He indicated that the most common cause was boosting the vehicle with swapped cables. Not sure if this could corrupt the FRM, or just fry it.

Another cause could be disconnecting and reconnecting the battery (read in other post in forum).

[Nocturnal1]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

Questions:

1) Do ALL your other Modules appear in the ISTA Control Unit Tree/ List?

2) Do ALL your other Modules appear in INPA > Functional Jobs > F2 Identification?

3) What Warning Lights do you have on Instrument Cluster?

4) What Fault Codes do you have in OTHER Modules?

5) What FRM Lighting Functions, window functions, do NOT work?

6) Do you have Adaptive Headlights?

7) WHY are you concerned with F15? ISTA & Bentley say that's for Amplifer (audio) which has nothing to do with FRM. Also KL 30g has NOTHING to do with FRM, as that is basically an Accessory Relay.

Generally if ONE Module cannot be "Connected to" or does NOT appear in List or Tree:
a) Its power supply for "Electronics" is absent;
b) Its Bus Connection (here K-CAN Bus) is missing or damaged.

Attached to NEXT POST, so as NOT to destroy margins here, are 4 ScreenPrints from ISTA, showing the Power Supply Fuses to your FRM Module, and the K-CAN Bus connections, with Connector (X14260) Location and View, along with wiring between FRM Module and the JBE (Connector X14271 on right edge of that ScreenPrint). The JBE is the "Hub" to which the Scan Tool/ OBD II Cable connects, and to which ALL Modules connect via the various BUS Systems (K-CAN, PT-CAN, etc.).

So check the four fuses that power your FRM Module: F41, F81, F84 & F86. If they are ALL good, then check the two Pins at Connector X14260 at the FRM Module that provide K-CAN connection: Pin #45, Green wire, and Pin #46, Orange/ Green wire. Make sure pins & sockets are clean & undamaged. Use Electronic Contact Cleaner to clean pins & sockets of any corrosion.

Please let us know answers to questions and result of above tests.
George

2010 328i base model
ok so on bimmercode it says no communication with footwell.

warning at startup ;
passenger taillight malfunction
passenger adaptive headlight malfunction
sos malfunction

frm was just reprogrammed supposedly but no change at all !
brake lights good turn signals good
inner trunk taillights don't work both sides , and no passenger taillight . never seen those work

any ideas ?? ill go through tonight and check the pinouts on the frm and fuses that power it .

any help is much appreciated

[xdamageincx]

Originally Posted by Nocturnal1

2010 328i base model
ok so on bimmercode it says no communication with footwell.

warning at startup ;
passenger taillight malfunction
passenger adaptive headlight malfunction
sos malfunction

frm was just reprogrammed supposedly but no change at all !
brake lights good turn signals good
inner trunk taillights don't work both sides , and no passenger taillight . never seen those work

any ideas ?? ill go through tonight and check the pinouts on the frm3 and fuses that power it .

any help is much appreciated

I'm experiencing something similar to you...(I posted in another thread about Angel Eye coding.
Strange thing is that I bought a VIN matched FRM3 and can't get the fender repeaters to work (in addition to Angel Eyes DRL)...
I am sending my original FRM that is bricked to be copied and rest to see if it the replacement that is giving me problems.
I will be trying PIN 8 & 32 on FRM 3 that is in the car tonight(replacement) to see if there is any signal and the FRM fuses.
F41, F81, F84 & F86
and
12V on the pins from the FRM (sometime this weekend)