[Noc57]

Hey guys I just got done taking my car in for service and my SA told me something that I found interesting.

Apparently BMW has some kind of machine that can detect tunes regardless to whether it was cleared using a BT tool, Procede software, etc. He told me that regardless to what you use, they do know whether or not you've had a tune (removed or not).

Again, this is a tune friendly dealer. My SA has told me several times that they don't really care, but because they have to pretty much hook the car up to this machine for anything service related, the info is logged and stored where BMWNA can access it later if needed. (ie, PUMA case).

I'm just curious about this. He said he had a fellow friend and client come in and show him all the shadow codes, etc. using his latest software hooked up to his PC. Yet, even after removing all the shadow and tuning codes my SA said it was still detected by their machine when he had his car serviced. (HPFP)

Apparently it can even tell if past codes were deleted and to whether or not they were cleared by BMW.

Interesting stuff, if it is in fact true. Guess that sums it up pretty nicely. No tune is truely "undetectable".

[oner]

Absolute BS. You dealer is full of it. People have gone in after removing their tunes (and cleared codes) to have their turbos replaces which needs to be approve by BMW HQ. If they have some machine to detect "shadow" codes then those people wouldn't have gotten new turbos.

[MalM3]

yeah , not too sure if that system exists tbh..

[bimmerlex]

Originally Posted by oner

Absolute BS. You dealer is full of it. People have gone in after removing their tunes (and cleared codes) to have their turbos replaces which needs to be approve by BMW HQ. If they have some machine to detect "shadow" codes then those people wouldn't have gotten new turbos.

I agree. We have yet to see any single car/owner that had the warranty voided after the tune was removed and the codes cleared.

[Noc57]

Originally Posted by oner

Absolute BS. You dealer is full of it. People have gone in after removing their tunes (and cleared codes) to have their turbos replaces which needs to be approve by BMW HQ. If they have some machine to detect "shadow" codes then those people wouldn't have gotten new turbos.

My thoughts as well. I was thinking then why is it people have been able to get new turbo's, injectors, HPFP's, etc...after removing and clearing their codes.

Unless BMW has some kind of updated new software, or the people being detected are going in with tunes still installed, codes not cleared, etc.

Just had me curious as I have never had a tune yet, but I'm becoming increasingly anxious to try out JB3 2.0

[Slidewayz]

BMW FUD mongering at its finest.

[oner]

Originally Posted by Noc57

My thoughts as well. I was thinking then why is it people have been able to get new turbo's, injectors, HPFP's, etc...after removing and clearing their codes.

Unless BMW has some kind of updated new software, or the people being detected are going in with tunes still installed, codes not cleared, etc.

Just had me curious as I have never had a tune yet, but I'm becoming increasingly anxious to try out JB3 2.0

You dealer is just BSing you so you will be scared and not buy an aftermarket tune so they can sell you the Dinan and make more $$$ of of you. Its a scare tactic for higher sales..nothing more.

[rismo]

The thruth is in the middle as far as I can oversee...

Standard diagnostics, both local at the dealer but also as send to the BMW warranty department is based on the data stored in the ECU / DME. (Normal and Shadow memory). But there is also a "special" black box fasta interface.

This is more or less used for engineering improvement purposes but in case of big dispuuts BMW can use this data (it is available....)...

As far as I can oversee and understand the concept, the data is about how often traction control has been kicked in, average's and peak's statistics, all kind of values (top speed, rpm's heat etc) etc etc, the intention of this data is to improve engineering not directly for warranty purposes... but ofcourse in case of lawsuites etc this could be used...

Bottom line, BMW can retrieve much more data from your car then the ECU is showing us, but personally I do not know any case where BMW used this data to decline warranty...

And feel free to correct me if Í'm wrong :-)

[shifterboy45]

i really like these threads, for several reasons:

1) dealers have a way of over-stating certain capabilities currently available to them

2) drivers have a way of explaining away the ability of the manufacturer to ascertain certain things related to their cars.

this really feeds in the idea that there is a conspiracy to hunt down tuned cars and eradicate them from the warranty journals.

there is a point where a sophisticated manufacturer can (and will) go to protect their interest, namely warranty claim pay out, and lease vehicle "abuse" - which depreciates the value of the car, and tarnishes their reputation (whoever they may be)..

now to say if BMW has that type of capability -- just put it this way, do your really want to find out ?? (this is not to say yes they do, or no they dont) -- only stating the obvious -- tune at your own risk!!

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by rismo123

The thruth is in the middle as far as I can oversee...

Standard diagnostics, both local at the dealer but also as send to the BMW warranty department is based on the data stored in the ECU / DME. (Normal and Shadow memory). But there is also a "special" black box fasta interface.

This is more or less used for engineering improvement purposes but in case of big dispuuts BMW can use this data (it is available....)...

As far as I can oversee and understand the concept, the data is about how often traction control has been kicked in, average's and peak's statistics, all kind of values (top speed, rpm's heat etc) etc etc, the intention of this data is to improve engineering not directly for warranty purposes... but ofcourse in case of lawsuites etc this could be used...

Bottom line, BMW can retrieve much more data from your car then the ECU is showing us, but personally I do not know any case where BMW used this data to decline warranty...

And feel free to correct me if Í'm wrong :-)

keyword!!! FASTA data

there is no software (other that BMW's that can read this information) -- no matter what aftermarket software development companies say...

this is product improvement information (R&D), and not subject to release to any other entity for proprietary reasons.....

[e.n335]

It would not be that hard at all for BMW. Just store the date when the latest codes have been cleared and compare it to the date when your car has been hooked on to BMW equipment. In case it doesn't match, dig in. Simple, effective, not rocket-science.

[2kaccordocoupe]

wait wait wait so they do all this detection work but they still can't figure out the hpfp or fix the bugs in idrive - brilliant

[scott@bmwhn]

what shiftboy45 said.

...BMW isnt on a witch hunt for people tuning their cars...However, they do have to convey the message of "tune at your own risk"

[F104]

I fully expect BMW to record max values, it's done on heavy duty truck engines too. We know from some threads they record max rpm; so why not boost, MAP/MAF, and fuel flow. From a tuning perspective they only need these. To get power you need fuel and air, and the ECU would know about it, or see abnormalities. Would be interesting if the BT could retrieve that data if it's there.You really don't need a complicated data logger to prove a tune if some smart non erasable triggers are in the software. .

A piggy back style module will of course avoid the ECU sees these values, but then the ECU might as well detect the values are constantly below normal expected values while still achieving normal maximum values.

But then who cares if you're out of warranty, don't count on policy support in todays economic climate.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by 2kaccordocoupe

wait wait wait so they do all this detection work but they still can't figure out the hpfp or fix the bugs in idrive - brilliant

as every company BMW is looking for cost-effective solutions. my intention is not to scare anyone, i'd like to bring it up to the table how easy it would be to sort out cost-relevant warranty repairs.

anyways, this is only the rational side. BMW will compromise on recurring customers, type and price of car, known bugs, etc.

nothing is set into stone.

[e.n335]

I tuned my 335i until I realized that there is a point of no return. You can go too far.

At that point I decided to sell the 335i and bought the M3. It is still untuned and I hope to get anything sorted out until I will have no more warranty. Then I plan to tune. Until then I'll improve my driving skills to handle the M3. Not straight line, everywhere.

[Blake]

quit being a poonani RC and get you some juice.

[Noc57]

Originally Posted by e.n335

I tuned my 335i until I realized that there is a point of no return. You can go too far.

At that point I decided to buy the M3. It is still untuned and I hope to get anything sorted out until I will have no more warranty. Then I plan to tune.

I agree, there's a point when you can say bye bye warranty. Add some catless DP's, FMIC, DCI, exhaust, etc....and it becomes much more complicated than a plug and play/take out before you go in for service vehicle.

If you want to keep your warranty, you're better off sticking with a factory spec car that comes pre-set with amazing performance as is (hence M3).

Then again, there's not really much you can do with the M other than adding a pulley and changing the rear diff. (unless you're looking to spend some serious cash) At that point you were probably better off going with a GT-R or a turbo car if tuning's your thing.

As much as I love the M3, they really just don't have to enough torque for the amount of power they put out.

[goodstuff448]

I thought the key stored codes?

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Noc57

If you want to keep your warranty, you're better off sticking with a factory spec car that comes pre-set with amazing performance as is (hence M3).

Then again, there's not really much you can do with the M other than adding a pulley and changing the rear diff. (unless you're looking to spend some serious cash) At that point you were probably better off going with a GT-R or a turbo car if tuning's your thing.

As much as I love the M3, they really just don't have to enough torque for the amount of power they put out.

judging by this post, you've been spending too much time around me.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Noc57

I agree, there's a point when you can say bye bye warranty. Add some catless DP's, FMIC, DCI, exhaust, etc....and it becomes much more complicated than a plug and play/take out before you go in for service vehicle.

If you want to keep your warranty, you're better off sticking with a factory spec car that comes pre-set with amazing performance as is (hence M3).

Then again, there's not really much you can do with the M other than adding a pulley and changing the rear diff. (unless you're looking to spend some serious cash) At that point you were probably better off going with a GT-R or a turbo car if tuning's your thing.

You can supercharge it and make huge power. Current products are in place since very few months only. It will be common knowledge in 2 1/2 years what is sustainable, when my warranty will end. Costs are not higher than upgraded turbos + fmic + full exhaust + tune on the 335i. 600+ bhp is the outcome.

[Noc57]

Originally Posted by Blake

judging by this post, you've been spending too much time around me.

True story.