[N8N]

Hi all,

I have a question that is primarily related to wheels and tires, but I'm posting here rather in the w/t forum because I really would primarily like feedback from those experienced with the E9x chassis in road race type situations.

My thoughts are this - I have an '09 335i w/ M-sport suspension and original 19" staggered Style 230 wheels w/ dealer-purchased RFTs. I love the car. However... I recently purchased some Style 157s (which are 17x8s and about 20 lbs. apiece) and mounted some Craigslist Blizzaks on them, and have actually logged a decent amount of miles on the car in the past week. I've been running 34/36 PSI in them.

My impressions are that the ride is significantly improved, in mild street driving handling feel is not significantly degraded other than the expected slight loss of crispness just due to the Blizzaks, and also the expected increase in road noise for the same reason - although my sensitivity may be dulled by years of driving inferior cars I have obviously not been testing ultimate cornering or handling in transitions on Blizzaks, nor have I been racing the car...

However my question is this. If I were to turn this car into a true daily driver slash long distance road trip car, I could care less about the *appearance* of the wheel/tire package so long as it is not particularly bad. It does look fantastic with the 230s but I wonder if I am actually getting a real handling benefit from the 19" package, or if that is strictly one of those "for appearance only" things. It seems to me from skimming that people racing these cars often use 18" wheels and sometime even 17".

If I were to go to something like a 18" D-force square setup for summer wheels/tires whenever the RFTs wear out, would I get, assuming good quality summer tires, the same or better handling than I would with the 19s?

What about 17" summer tires? Is that even an option? (would a D-force fit a 335i? **********s says "I don't think so.")

Basically where I'm at now is I'm thinking that if I were to go with something with a lighter rotating/unsprung weight and thicker sidewall I might love the car even more, and at the same time save money on replacement tires (possibly - if I were to keep the car long enough to go through a couple sets of tires to offset the cost of more wheels.) Possible, or am I smoking the crack? If I were to pursue this option what would you think I should go with? D-force? K-1? Search out another set of 157s? What about tires, Michelin PSS? (for street use and a very occasional possible DE)

The reason for the title of this post is that I'm definitely a function over form guy, or really, what is beautiful to me is something that looks good but more importantly functions at the highest level. So within reason (no ultra-lightweight disposa-wheels that you expect to crack after one season please) what I think would be the best wheel/tire setup *for me* would be a wheel that would not be out of place at the track, with good high performance street tires on them.

This isn't an urgent need type post; I don't anticipate it becoming relevant until maybe spring after next. I just have ideas kicking around in my head...


thanks for any opinions or experiences!

[N54_Fan]

In my opinion Forgestar F14 without a doubt. Best all around,...looks good, light weight, good for track because of strength, can be obtained in any color you can imagine.

[N8N]

those look like serious wheels (with a serious price tag!) I'm assuming you would go with 18s?

[N54_Fan]

Originally Posted by N8N

those look like serious wheels (with a serious price tag!) I'm assuming you would go with 18s?

Actually I dont recall them being that expensive. I think I paid $300 each which I think is reasonable. Yes 18s square set up for the track. I actually bought 5 wheels and tires so that if I had a flat at the track I could just switch wheels and go. I dont lose out on my track day that way.

What price range are you looking for? VMR wheels are cheaper and still a good light weight wheel and considered strong enough for the track but many would say that the build quality is not as good as the Forgestar.

[N8N]

Hah... As Cheap As Possible. (but of course, with quality kept in mind.)

So in all reality if I commit to changing the whole package when I need new tires I'm probably going to be looking for something used, just like when I bought my car. I'd rather get something of good quality but not brand shiny new than pay the same amount of money and get something "OK."

I *could* just pop for some 19" PSS BUT... the voices in my head say that the car might actually drive better with lighter 18s or even maybe 17s?

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by N8N

Hi all,

I have a question that is primarily related to wheels and tires, but I'm posting here rather in the w/t forum because I really would primarily like feedback from those experienced with the E9x chassis in road race type situations.

My thoughts are this - I have an '09 335i w/ M-sport suspension and original 19" staggered Style 230 wheels w/ dealer-purchased RFTs. I love the car. However... I recently purchased some Style 157s (which are 17x8s and about 20 lbs. apiece) and mounted some Craigslist Blizzaks on them, and have actually logged a decent amount of miles on the car in the past week. I've been running 34/36 PSI in them.

My impressions are that the ride is significantly improved, in mild street driving handling feel is not significantly degraded other than the expected slight loss of crispness just due to the Blizzaks, and also the expected increase in road noise for the same reason - although my sensitivity may be dulled by years of driving inferior cars I have obviously not been testing ultimate cornering or handling in transitions on Blizzaks, nor have I been racing the car...

However my question is this. If I were to turn this car into a true daily driver slash long distance road trip car, I could care less about the *appearance* of the wheel/tire package so long as it is not particularly bad. It does look fantastic with the 230s but I wonder if I am actually getting a real handling benefit from the 19" package, or if that is strictly one of those "for appearance only" things. It seems to me from skimming that people racing these cars often use 18" wheels and sometime even 17".

If I were to go to something like a 18" D-force square setup for summer wheels/tires whenever the RFTs wear out, would I get, assuming good quality summer tires, the same or better handling than I would with the 19s?

What about 17" summer tires? Is that even an option? (would a D-force fit a 335i? **********s says "I don't think so.")

Basically where I'm at now is I'm thinking that if I were to go with something with a lighter rotating/unsprung weight and thicker sidewall I might love the car even more, and at the same time save money on replacement tires (possibly - if I were to keep the car long enough to go through a couple sets of tires to offset the cost of more wheels.) Possible, or am I smoking the crack? If I were to pursue this option what would you think I should go with? D-force? K-1? Search out another set of 157s? What about tires, Michelin PSS? (for street use and a very occasional possible DE)

The reason for the title of this post is that I'm definitely a function over form guy, or really, what is beautiful to me is something that looks good but more importantly functions at the highest level. So within reason (no ultra-lightweight disposa-wheels that you expect to crack after one season please) what I think would be the best wheel/tire setup *for me* would be a wheel that would not be out of place at the track, with good high performance street tires on them.

This isn't an urgent need type post; I don't anticipate it becoming relevant until maybe spring after next. I just have ideas kicking around in my head...


thanks for any opinions or experiences!

I know exactly what you mean. Definitely check out Apex wheels, especially Apex ARC-8. Tested on track over and over again and around 18-19 lbs. Probably the best value wheel for street and track. I am getting a set of 18/9 and 18/9.5 next spring. Apex also has new EC-7 that was recently released. PSS tires are one of the best and used by many on street and track, highly recommended.

My top three wheels, best value on top:

1. Apex ARC-8
2. Forgestar F14
3. Advan RS

GL

[N54_Fan]

Originally Posted by NokTurNaL 330i

I know exactly what you mean. Definitely check out Apex wheels, especially Apex ARC-8. Tested on track over and over again and around 18-19 lbs. Probably the best value wheel for street and track. I am getting a set of 18/9 and 18/9.5 next spring. Apex also has new EC-7 that was recently released. PSS tires are one of the best and used by many on street and track, highly recommended.

My top three wheels, best value on top:

1. Apex ARC-8
2. Forgestar F14
3. Advan RS

GL

Agree with this. However ARC-8s are about $40-$50 more than F14's each wheel.

[rx7gslse]

here's what I did.. widest, lightest, best value square setup I could find.

17x9 Arc-8s w/ 255s on all corners.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=51



it's not the most 'stylin' setup out there, but it sure handles a lot better. Killed the understeer and rides a ton nicer with about 25% less unspring weight.

[N8N]

I don't think that looks bad at all. Any idea if that would fit on pre-LCI E92 or better to stick with a 8.5" and slightly narrower rubber? Thanks for the reply, looks like I posted in the right place - you guys are thinking like I am it would appear.

[rx7gslse]

Originally Posted by N8N

I don't think that looks bad at all. Any idea if that would fit on pre-LCI E92 or better to stick with a 8.5" and slightly narrower rubber? Thanks for the reply, looks like I posted in the right place - you guys are thinking like I am it would appear.

Oh, I love the look myself, but seems like most of the population on this board would rather see a 19x10" wheel and a stretched tire... but that's not my preference.


I'm not the expert, but I think the fitment for E90/E92 pre-LCI is the same? I know LCI loses a bit of space in the rear.


Eitherway, I went back and forth with Joe at Apex and he will know *exactly* what fits how with the wheels & tires you want... See this thread as a starting point with lots of info.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651864


Another big bonus is that 17" tires are a LOT cheaper

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by N8N

I don't think that looks bad at all. Any idea if that would fit on pre-LCI E92 or better to stick with a 8.5" and slightly narrower rubber? Thanks for the reply, looks like I posted in the right place - you guys are thinking like I am it would appear.

Check with Apex they are great!

18: 8.5 245/35 and 9.5 265/35; if you want 255/35 in front for square set-up you will need to increase negative camber most likely and could go with a 9.0 rim and a 10mm spacer due to rim offset. Not a big deal and not that expensive, just get Ground Control camber plates (good quality). You will get increased grip up front for HPDEs. You can also go 255 and 265, that will be my set-up most likely.

17: great performance and even cheaper rubber! same comments as above for 255 in front.

ARCs look much better when you see them in person, my favorite is hyper black color.

Square 17 255 set-up above is awesome!

[N54_Fan]

Originally Posted by rx7gslse

here's what I did.. widest, lightest, best value square setup I could find.

17x9 Arc-8s w/ 255s on all corners.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=51



it's not the most 'stylin' setup out there, but it sure handles a lot better. Killed the understeer and rides a ton nicer with about 25% less unspring weight.

I think those are tiny and 18s square would probably outperfrom them at the track. I agree 19s are low profile and look better but for most daily driving and even aggressive daily driving you can do fine with them. For performance I still say 18s square all the way. Just my 0.02.

[rx7gslse]

Originally Posted by N54_Fan

I think those are tiny and 18s square would probably outperfrom them at the track. I agree 19s are low profile and look better but for most daily driving and even aggressive daily driving you can do fine with them. For performance I still say 18s square all the way. Just my 0.02.

YEah, the look isn't for everyone. They're pretty mundane.

18s are certainly not a bad choice but no one makes an 18x9 et 30 that I like, so I went for these... The Apex EC-7 is a good choice, but they didn't come in the color I wanted, and they're a fair bit heavier than the Arc-8s. (~25% if I recall)

[#Tee]

BBS magnesium e88's.

[N54_Fan]

Originally Posted by rx7gslse

YEah, the look isn't for everyone. They're pretty mundane.

18s are certainly not a bad choice but no one makes an 18x9 et 30 that I like, so I went for these... The Apex EC-7 is a good choice, but they didn't come in the color I wanted, and they're a fair bit heavier than the Arc-8s. (~25% if I recall)

I have Forgestar F14 18x9 and I love them. With Potenza RE11 the car feels planted much more than stock and I am only on the stock sport suspension. I have Michelin PSS on 19s on my daily wheels which are also great tires but I must admit that the RE11 are a shade better than the PSS.

[N8N]

Originally Posted by ~XxTeexX~

BBS magnesium e88's.

Yes, I've been keeping an eye out on the forums for an inexpensive used set, but I'm apparently not looking at the right time, because I keep missing them.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by N54_Fan

In my opinion Forgestar F14 without a doubt. Best all around,...looks good, light weight, good for track because of strength, can be obtained in any color you can imagine.

Did you have balance issues?

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?p=239734

[will.c]

very good question OP, I got a lot to say so bear with me. You and many others may know some or all of the following info already, but I'm just gonna clarify everything for those who don't.

First my credentials quickly: Daily drive 20k/yr; 15 DE days/yr; owned 4 diff sets of wheels & tires (snow, daily, track); current setup = 17x7.5 on 205/50 Wintersport M3; track setup = 17x8.5 Kosei 245/40 Star Specs; daily TBD in spring.

Next, a few answers on some potential theory questions:
Q: steering quickness drops from 19" to 17", in addition to now having blizzaks?
A: both valid.
Q: what determines the steering quickness/sharpness/response the most? (in terms of wheels and tires only; no suspension or any other variables)
A: tire's sidewall stiffness. Well, of course that 19" will have better response than 17" given identical tires, but what I'm saying, for example, is that 17" with RS3s or Star Specs will be stiffer than 19" with DWS' or V12s. In addition, tire pressure plays a (significant) role here too, so 17" with stiff tires and jacked up pressure, you'll be on rails.
Q: why race cars use 18" or even 17"?
A: lower "moment of inertia" (equivalent form of "mass" in rotational sense, hence plays a much bigger role in every aspect of a moving car than simply mass). (1) As stated above, steering response can be made up by type of tire and tire pressure, so there's no need for 19". (2) typically for same wheel design, larger diameter = larger mass = much larger moment of inertia. (3) assuming 2 different wheels have identical mass at different diameters, the smaller diameter will have less moment of inertia because majority of the mass of any wheel is at the barrel, not at the spokes. (There's also tire weight/moment of inertia to consider and compare to the wheel size, but let's not get THAT far.)
Q: then why don't all race cars go as small as 17", 16", etc?
A: race cars typically have large brakes that will require minimum of 18" for clearance. If they could go lower, they prob will go lower. Some, not all, 17" will clear 335i brakes.

What I recommend you:
Since you're function over form, budget-conscious, and need to be able to daily-drive (such as I on all three), my short answer would be Apex ARC-8 17x9 ET30 w/ 245/40/17 Michelin Pilot Super Sports.

Long answer: I'm sure there are other cheap, strong, light wheels, but I just don't know/remember to list them out for you. But ARC-8s, for one, are pretty strong, relatively cheap, don't need any spacers, light, relatively-high resale value, etc. I got Kosei K1s but I don't know if I'd recommend them for the streets. I've heard some stories. Yes, they are relatively weak, so streeting them won't be a great idea. Afterall , the most wheel damages are done at the street (potholes) rather than at the track, which may be ironic to some people.

Super Sports are light, great grip (just a tad bit lower than Star Specs, RS3s, or RE-11s, but these compromise streetability a bit too much IMO), excellent life, comfortable (yes, sidewalls are softer than the aforementioned three, but you can mediate that by jacking up the pressure to about 40psi when you go to the track), predictable and controllable at the limit, AND they are fantastic in rain. I believe you can typically fit 255/40/17 on all four, but unfortunately Super Sports are not available in that size. 245s are good enough.

Don't get use tires. Risk of apparent or unapparent damage is too large to be spending (significant) money on something that determines the car's characteristics the most, especially if you're an enthusiast expecting to push the car to the limit (at the track). The piece of mind of fresh tires is well worth the money.

Used rims? I'd say a hit or a miss cuz a lot of times people say they are not bent when they actually are, as well as other more critical things. But if you can inspect thoroughly, and the deal is good, then go for it.

Now, whether to get a square or staggered set is a whole separate story. Quick answer on that would be square IMO, but there are benefits on both, and I can elaborate if desired.

[N8N]

Hmmm, I was leaning towards the 245 PSS's already, so you're really just kind of validating my choices. However, I didn't really know what the "hot" wheels were, sounds like everyone is saying whether I go 17 or 18 that I should primarily be looking at ARC-8s and F14s.

What would be the advantages of the staggered setup? I really don't see the upside, honestly, other than built-in understeer for those who didn't grow up driving RWD pickup trucks in snow

[N54_Fan]

Originally Posted by NokTurNaL 330i

Did you have balance issues?

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?p=239734

No. I thought I did but ended up I had bad bearings.

[jbass524]

APEX makes a concave 17X9.5 ET35 that is awesome. You only need a 5mm spacer on the front. -2 degree of camber on the front would clear a meaty 255 like a Michelin PSS.

Performance gains made by 18s over 17s are negligible and only matter for looks, if you're a very good driver, or you just want 18s; which is ok.

The pic is of the 17X9.5


They also make a 17X9 ET30 concave wheel that could use a 5-10mm spacer in back for looks. This is a good option if you want to run 245s and don't have the required camber in the front.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by jbass524

APEX makes a concave 17X9.5 ET35 that is awesome. You only need a 5mm spacer on the front. -2 degree of camber on the front would clear a meaty 255 like a Michelin PSS.

Performance gains made by 18s over 17s are negligible and only matter for looks, if you're a very good driver, or you just want 18s; which is ok.



They also make a 17X9 ET30 concave wheel that could use a 5-10mm spacer in back for looks. This is a good option if you want to run 245s and don't have the required camber in the front.

As far as I know PSS 255/40 does not exist however PS2 is available. I hope this new PSS comes out in the spring.