[BavarianMW]

LL just means Long Life approved, so unless your trying to get longevity out of your oil, which for most of us e90post members we're not and we're changing our oil far far more often then most people, then stop throwing it around like its super important, because its not. LL01 just means that its been approved for long life as of 2001, LL04 is the same thing but now approved for 2004 +. Racing oils are far superior to regular oils, they provide the lowest phosphorous and sulfur levels, offer the best protection, and are more performance and protection oriented where as regular oils are more economy and efficiency oriented. Keep in mind that "racing" oils are totally available for consumer use and recommended, and are perfectly safe as long as you follow the weight ratings, which in our case would be 0W-30 and 40 and 5W- 30 and 40. So don’t think that "racing" oil means that it must have some crazy un safe additives that are not safe for our engines, which also keep in mind are turbo charged engines that to a certain extent are considered high performance engines ( the N54 )
Ultra high end oils like Motul 300v, castrol edge, and royal purple XPR dont care about all the API, SM, SL, and LL ratings because those things are just industry standards and all of those top grade oils I just mentioned far exceed those standards and they mention it as well. I would pay attention to those standards if you are buying regular motor oils, but when going for the top grade stuff just know that the standards are being exceeded.

Top grade oils will cost you though, expect to pay from 120-200 for just the oil and for just the required 6.5- 7 quarts required for the NG6 series engines

[inductivetheory]

...good stuff

[droptop335]

Originally Posted by BavarianMW

LL just means Long Life approved, so unless your trying to get longevity out of your oil, which for most of us e90post members we're not and we're changing our oil far far more often then most people, then stop throwing it around like its super important, because its not. LL01 just means that its been approved for long life as of 2001, LL04 is the same thing but now approved for 2004 +.

Please tell us your source for these statements. I am not saying you are wrong, just wondering where this information comes from. It is possible that "LL" oils have other properties besides long life that make them better suited to our cars...What exactly is in "LL" oils that make them long life...?

[epiphone3]

Originally Posted by droptop335

Please tell us your source for these statements. I am not saying you are wrong, just wondering where this information comes from. It is possible that "LL" oils have other properties besides long life that make them better suited to our cars...What exactly is in "LL" oils that make them long life...?

The LL oils also have a detergent package that BMW approves to keep the inside of the engine clean.

Oils that are not BMW LL approved may have these, but they may not. The fact is that they may not have not been tested against the BMW standard so you you don't know if they simply do not meet BMW's requirements or if they do meet BMW's requirements but were not tested. I'd rather not take any chances of voiding the warantee.

[jon@themshop]

Originally Posted by epiphone3

The LL oils also have a detergent package that BMW approves to keep the inside of the engine clean.

+1

Some or most racing oils don't even have detergency in the oil.

[droptop335]

Bingo...we have a winner...

[droptop335]

Seems to me that in some cases, racing engines are torn down and rebuilt VERY often, sometimes after every race. In these cases, detergency is a non-issue. But for me, even if I change oil every 3k miles, I would want that protection in my engine...

[The Cleaner]

I don't care what anyone else puts in their car, but getting BMW LL or any other car manufacturer approval is not easy, if it was then everyone would have it. Any oil will work in any car, lets not kid ourselves, same with fuel. The difference is going with a product that BMW has tested or an un-testing product. Really that simple.

Just like brake pads, If TUV approval was so easy or "not important" when why are so many manufacturers not approved? People slap Axxis and other pads on their car every day without the slightest worry about the ABS and traction systems ability to compensate for the change in material. Is that bad? who knows it's not tested.

Same applies to oil, you cant say it's better or worse, for a specific application because it's not tested.

[droptop335]

Originally Posted by The Cleaner

Just like brake pads, If TUV approval was so easy or "not important" when why are so many manufacturers not approved? People slap Axxis and other pads on their car every day without the slightest worry about the ABS and traction systems ability to compensate for the change in material. Is that bad? who knows it's not tested.

Don't kid yourself into believing TUV-approved parts would work in your car either. "TUV" approval doesn't imply that it has been tested and/or approved by a specific manufcaturer to use in their car. It simnply means that the part manufacturer has complied with European regulatory requirements. A part could be TUV approved, and still not work well in your car.

[The Cleaner]

Originally Posted by droptop335

Don't kid yourself into believing TUV-approved parts would work in your car either. "TUV" approval doesn't imply that it has been tested and/or approved by a specific manufcaturer to use in their car. It simnply means that the part manufacturer has complied with European regulatory requirements. A part could be TUV approved, and still not work well in your car.

I'll take a TUV approved and tested part over not approved any day of the week. I am most familiar with the approval process for Brakes which is why I mention it. TUV approval for Brake components is +/- 10% performance in all categories of braking. Even pads that perform at 111% will be denied approval. This is to assure the safety and reliability of every system onboard the vehicle, from traction control to stopping distances and heat dissipation, they all depends on staying withing a given working range.

That means you can expect a TUV part to perform at 90%-110% of it's original factory equivalent. That is 90% more that I know about a non approved part.

I agree it's not perfect but with a choice of TUV or nothing, I'll bet on the approved parts every time.

[droptop335]

Originally Posted by The Cleaner

I'll take a TUV approved and tested part over not approved any day of the week. I am most familiar with the approval process for Brakes which is why I mention it. TUV approval for Brake components is +/- 10% performance in all categories of braking. Even pads that perform at 111% will be denied approval. This is to assure the safety and reliability of every system onboard the vehicle, from traction control to stopping distances and heat dissipation, they all depends on staying withing a given working range.

That means you can expect a TUV part to perform at 90%-110% of it's original factory equivalent. That is 90% more that I know about a non approved part.

I agree it's not perfect but with a choice of TUV or nothing, I'll bet on the approved parts every time.

I understand your thought process and agree with your conclusions, but that's not the end of the story. TUV approves lots of engine oils also, but that doesn't mean they are all interchangeable in our cars...

[BoostedInPhx]

The Cleaner said

I don't care what anyone else puts in their car, but getting BMW LL or any other car manufacturer approval is not easy, if it was then everyone would have it. Any oil will work in any car, lets not kid ourselves, same with fuel. The difference is going with a product that BMW has tested or an un-testing product. Really that simple.

I believe even if the process was easy to get a BMW approval most oils (90+ %?) can not meet the spec. It is more then the detergent package. One part of the LL-01 spec is the required HTHS (High Temperature,High Shear) viscosity of 3.5 or greater at 150 C. If you look very few oils in the 5W-30 or 0W-40 meet this spec. Many of the specialty oil manufactures don't even show the specifications for their oils. They just want us to believe their oils are good enough and meeting manufactures or industry specs is not important or they know more then the industry or manufacture. More of an additive is not always better if your cat fails, your plug are covered with deposits or worse the deposits are on your HPI injectors. Wear and deposits on the injectors are a concern to BMW because they distort the spray pattern and cause spark plug failure or other damage if they are spraying the cylinder walls. I don't believe all oils are created equal and will take my chances with a BMW approved oil.

[droptop335]

Originally Posted by BoostedInPhx

The Cleaner said


I believe even if the process was easy to get a BMW approval most oils (90+ %?) can not meet the spec. It is more then the detergent package. One part of the LL-01 spec is the required HTHS (High Temperature,High Shear) viscosity of 3.5 or greater at 150 C. If you look very few oils in the 5W-30 or 0W-40 meet this spec. Many of the specialty oil manufactures don't even show the specifications for their oils. They just want us to believe their oils are good enough and meeting manufactures or industry specs is not important or they know more then the industry or manufacture. More of an additive is not always better if your cat fails, your plug are covered with deposits or worse the deposits are on your HPI injectors. Wear and deposits on the injectors are a concern to BMW because they distort the spray pattern and cause spark plug failure or other damage if they are spraying the cylinder walls. I don't believe all oils are created equal and will take my chances with a BMW approved oil.

Ummm...why would OIL cause any injector or plug problems? If you've got enough oil in your cylinders to cause these problems, then the type of oil is not your main issue...

[BoostedInPhx]

Small quantites of oil are always get into the cylinder and being burned. This leaves behind some of the additives as deposits. This is the concern about high levels of ZDDP in the oil effecting the operation of the catalytic converter. This is what has brought about the GF-4 oil spec to prolong the life of the cat. The new injectors are very sensitive about their spray pattern. If you check the technical documentation at the begining of this forum there is a section on the injection system that warns the techs not to use any shop chemicals on the injector or to try and clean them for fear of damaging them. In the past there was a concern about the amount of ash in the oil because these deposits in the cylinder head could be very hot and ignite the fuel mixture prematurely. You don't need clouds of blue smoke coming from your car. If it did not burn a small amount of oil you would never need to add any except during an oil changes.

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by BavarianMW

LL just means Long Life approved...stop throwing it around like its super important, because its not. Keep in mind that "racing" oils are totally available for consumer use and recommended, and are perfectly safe as long as you follow the weight ratings, which in our case would be 0W-30 and 40 and 5W- 30 and 40.

Well, I can follow your logic and use 0W-30 (Castrol) and 0W-40 (Mobil 1)that by your definition are racing oils and ok, plus they are LL01 approved.

[epiphone3]

Originally Posted by scottp999

Well, I can follow your logic and use 0W-30 (Castrol) and 0W-40 (Mobil 1)that by your definition are racing oils and ok, plus they are LL01 approved.

both good choices!

also don't everyone forget that BMW High Performance Synthetic is also an excellent choice

[1badE90]

Hey guy I have been using Royal Purple for years in my Audi never had a problem. If you change your Oil regularly like I do every 3k miles than you dont need LL approved Oils. If you go to royal purple's website they say their oil wont void any warranties http://www.royalpurple.com/prodsa/rpmoa.html thats a bold statement knowing they can be sued so you know legal has approved that.